And next, Syria?

[camouflage]

If Israel & the US are the beneficiaries of all this, they haven't done much to promote it. Israel has bombed a few weapons sites. The US has provided some aid & small arms & Obama makes a statement once in a while. It's Europe, mainly France that's chomping at the bit to help the rebels. Israel sits back & watches it's enemies slaughter each other.

And of course it was Assad who unleashed them. Syria is supposed to have over a dozen internal security organizations. I saw some in Damascus when daddy Assad was in power. They saunter around the streets with sub machine guns slung over their shoulders & wear arm patches with images of the royal family embroidered on them....sharp uniforms.....Assad's SS.

And thanks for supporting what I've been saying all along. This didn't start with jihadists. They came in later.

Yep, you can always tell the nature of a regime by its armed goons.

This idea by the way that Hezbullah see the world in the same way as armchair adventurers in the West, with the aircraft carriers and the marines and the forward bases and assault helicopter squadrons... it's telling because on the one hand people used to thinking in terms of wars of choice and the projection of power to a foreign land, and in terms of professional standing armies for the protection of far flung interests; are attributing their way of thinking onto what is essentially a defensive small-armed force of un-paid local volunteers... a militia.

Hizbullah's part in the Qusayr battle reflects the fact that what's happening in Syria is whats happening in their homes, to their cousins, neighbors etc. I found it interesting reading what Casually Red said above about Shi'ite villagers fighting under Hezbullah's organization against the marauders. I would argue that a militia is a very different beast to the kind of professional/mercenary army then could be used for the kind of calculated intervention presumed by TomUS and John Kerry and others of Hezbullah. The power to command a militia is completely different than to mercenaries as they can't be used to project power outside of the theater in which they exist, they don't exist where they don't live... they can only really be effective on home ground. So, Hezbollah didn't go to the mountain in my opinion, the mountain came to Hizbullah. the mountain of war obviously.

Of course any gang of blokes with guns can jump in the back of a truck and head off to parts unknown and do battle, but then they wouldn't be a militia, they wouldn't have the numbers, the logistics, the local knowledge or the sovereignty of decision. I don't see how that would be useful to either Hezbullah or the SAA.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Hezbollah is a bit more than just a militia based on defending local interests, it's links to Syria and Iran make it a bit tricky to box it off that way. It's also very well armed and well trained for a mere militia, it'd give the official Lebanese state a hard time if it had to.

Anyway next comes Homs, which looks like it's going to be another bloody battle. Here's a video that shows how important it is for Assad to regain Homs.

 

[thriller]

Awesome and moral boosting victory by Hez. Love these guys.

The whole Arab world showed pay homage these lads-if they had any sense and put away their in built hatred.

Iran funded and trained, too. Indication of how good the elite part of the Iranian army is. If they weren't crippled by sanctions and had access to latest military hardware, Iranian army would kick ass.

 

[Poo Flakes]

its certainly having an impact on the jihadists international backers

...

While the syrian army can in turn operate and resupply with a lot more ease . And morale . Which will mean more victories .
As Churchill said its not the beginning of the end but the end of the beginning .

I am a little surprised you paraphrased Churchill given your strong anti-West position and Churchill's massively right-wing views.

I probably do agree that the idea that the Free Syrians (whatever form that will take) will represent their constituents any better than Ba'athists Party represent their constituents is generally naive, stupid or imperialistic.

But, I do think you might be underestimating the strength of the Syrian opposition, which may or may not just be a group of armed weirdos. They would still be an extraordinarily wealthy one. The FSA has survived because it has a safe haven in Turkey and there is nothing Assad can really do about that.

 

[Casually Red]

Before this kicked off Assad himself had initiated a national dialogue and accepted the need for multiparty elections , which are scheduled for next year . The opposition cant even get their act together to agree among themselves on anything . They are incapable of running a half assed government in exile, much less a complex multi ethnic, multi faith state . Which most of them dont even want for Syrias future .
Assad has also accepted that its likely that even after the Syrian government has liberated the towns and cities its likely Syria will be facing a campaign of jihadist terrorism for years, maybe decades to come. But thats the responsibility of those who fund and harbour them . And which looks like its playing a significant enough role in Turkeys unrest and resentment towards its increasingly islamic tendencies . Thats an issue Syrians will have to face in the future , but right now their priority is the liberation of their towns from medievalist headcases and assorted cannibals . That looks to be more an acheivable goal now .

 

[Poo Flakes]

C'mon, while Syria was pretty progressive by Middle Eastern standards, Assad is still a capitalist and as mental as any American puppet.

 

[camouflage]

C'mon, while Syria was pretty progressive by Middle Eastern standards, Assad is still a capitalist and as mental as any American puppet.

Don't think the war is about some sort of communist or anarchist revolution. On what basis do you assert that Assad is a headcase?

 

[Casually Red]

Hes always come accross as quite sane , ruthless but sane . And certainly his analysis of events is not just eloquent and concise but pretty accurate . He hasnt demonstrated any of those egotistical power mania vices that Erdogan cant help . In fact he never even wanted the job in the first place, he was quite happy as a quiet optomotrist boning his beautiful wife in London and going to Star Trek conventions. He didnt need this shit at all.

 

[Delroy Booth]

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/6/5/as_us_deploys_patriot_missiles_and

New interview with Patrick Cockburn here, from about 17 mins in.

EDIT: I think the important thing that's happened is the decision from the US to position Patriot Missiles and F-16's to Jordan. This hasn't recieved as much media attention as when Russia sent weapons to Syria but it's far more significant. It's America's way of saying "I see your s-300 anti-aircraft missiles and mig-29's and I raise you a Patriot and an F-16" but of course our media doesn't seem to be so honest about it when it's us doing the imperial game-playing. They're actually reporting, with a straight face, that they're were put there for "military exercises" haha

 

[TomUS]

Before this kicked off Assad himself had initiated a national dialogue and accepted the need for multiparty elections

Almost certainly the same kind Ben Ali & Mubarak won on a regular basis.

Assad has also accepted that its likely that even after the Syrian government has liberated the towns and cities its likely Syria will be facing a campaign of jihadist terrorism for years

If he wins this round, he'll preside over a destroyed country/economy & an insurgency fueled by the hate he generated with his crimes. But he'll have his own jihadists from Hez & Iran to help him fight it.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Almost certainly the same kind Ben Ali & Mubarak won on a regular basis.

If he wins this round, he'll preside over a destroyed country/economy & an insurgency fueled by the hate he generated with his crimes. But he'll have his own jihadists from Hez & Iran to help him fight it.

You really seem keen on these Al-Nusrah boys winning Syria. Fucking hell I hope 500 of 'em don't turn up to your locality a few years hence to wage their cosmic jihadi struggle on the kufir's home territory. Can you imagine the damage a small number of armed "Osama Bin Laden" brigades types could cause if they were in a western country?

I reckon Casually Red's a little bit naive to think that the "national dialogue" he was talking about would amount to anything substantial, but unlike you I think he does understand the fundamentals of what's going on far far better than you do.

If it comes down to a straight choice (as tends to happen in a war) I'd much rather Bashar Al-Assad than the violent Salafist nutcases running the country.

 

[camouflage]

Hes always come accross as quite sane , ruthless but sane . And certainly his analysis of events is not just eloquent and concise but pretty accurate . He hasnt demonstrated any of those egotistical power mania vices that Erdogan cant help . In fact he never even wanted the job in the first place, he was quite happy as a quiet optomotrist boning his beautiful wife in London and going to Star Trek conventions. He didnt need this shit at all.

It's something I've wondered about actually even with American presidents... few if any regimes are monolithic, even though they can be oppressive, expansionist, brutal and cruel. But how much of that can the guy in the drivers seat actually control? I assume for instance that Obama is a super-functional psychopath like any other person that manages to rise through to the top of the US power-stack.

But what if it's more like a kind hearted person being strapped in to an immensely powerful robot suit, a machine that has its own agenda and is powerful and cruel and will move its own way regardless of how much the wearer wants to do things like close Guantanamo Bay or stop robo-terrorising Yemen or whatever. Same thing Assad, I don't know enough about the guy, but what would a soft-spoken eye-doctor do if he were standing atop a mountain of knives and given the task to dismantle the mountain, knife by knife... without losing his footing and plunging to a gory, stabby, slicy death. Who knows what goes on in the inner circle of any regime. I'm just glad that because I consider myself a good man, I have not found myself strapped into the American presidency to wonder whether I became a psychopath before or after taking up the post. Also glad not to have inherited a ruthless state machine from daddy with the self appointed task of making it a bit more comfy for the average Mo.

I have read though that the Syrian state brutality is centered on the secret police, with the SAA not despised by the populace. Does anyone know if this is true?

 

[Poo Flakes]

Don't think the war is about some sort of communist or anarchist revolution. On what basis do you assert that Assad is a headcase?

Well, that was my point. Not sure why you would 'support' one side over another in a conflict like this.

 

[TomUS]

I have read though that the Syrian state brutality is centered on the secret police, with the SAA not despised by the populace. Does anyone know if this is true?

When I visited back when daddy was dictator, one of the locals whispered to a member of our tour group "This is an occupied country." I assume most of the hatred was directed at the internal security services. They were so good at torture, the US sent AQ suspects there for that purpose. But after the horrors perpetrated by the SAA in this war I'd guess the average anti-Assad Syrian doesn't distinguish between them. They probably just hate Assad & his regime in general.

 

[elbows]

They're actually reporting, with a straight face, that they're were put there for "military exercises" haha

Well they are being out there for an exercise initially, but all the media I've seen have made stories out of officials speaking off the record saying that some of this stuff may remain in Jordan after the exercise is over.

 

[shifting gears]

When I visited back when daddy was dictator, one of the locals whispered to a member of our tour group "This is an occupied country." I assume most of the hatred was directed at the internal security services. They were so good at torture, the US sent AQ suspects there for that purpose. But after the horrors perpetrated by the SAA in this war I'd guess the average anti-Assad Syrian doesn't distinguish between them. They probably just hate Assad & his regime in general.

Anecdote... Probably... Daddy Assad

You're an idiot

 

[shifting gears]

Assume hahaha

 

[goldenecitrone]

If it comes down to a straight choice (as tends to happen in a war) I'd much rather Bashar Al-Assad than the violent Salafist nutcases running the country.

I'm sure the families of those who have died, bravely opposing Assad's brutal police state and child torturers, would be touched by your valiant stand.

 

[shifting gears]

I'm sure the families of those who have died, bravely opposing Assad's brutal police state and child torturers, would be touched by your valiant stand.

You blinkered imperialist cunt.

 

[goldenecitrone]

You blinkered imperialist cunt.

Dumbo's been on the sauce again, I see.

 

[shifting gears]

Dumbo's been on the sauce again, I see.

Got any more top notch guardian links?

Or global refugee solutions?

Nope, didn't think so.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Got any more top notch guardian links?

Or global refugee solutions?

Nope, didn't think so.

Still in suspense, I see. Just hang on in there.

 

[shifting gears]

I'm sure the families of those who have died, bravely opposing Assad's brutal police state and child torturers, would be touched by your valiant stand.

You should do a few lines about Rigby - you can punctuate it it with lines like 'our brave boys' , 'died with dignity' , 'valour and honour'

Then maybe footnote it with 'they come over here....'

You bad dick

 

[goldenecitrone]

You should do a few lines about Rigby - you can punctuate it it with lines like 'our brave boys' , 'died with dignity' , 'valour and honour'

Then maybe footnote it with 'they come over here....'

You bad dick

Lay off the drugs pal. You've got few enough brain cells as it is.

 

[Delroy Booth]

I'm sure the families of those who have died, bravely opposing Assad's brutal police state and child torturers, would be touched by your valiant stand.

Yawn. And I'm sure the families of those persecuted on crude sectarian grounds by al-nusrah and friends would be equally as gracious for your support. Etc Etc.

I couldn't give two shits for Assad, obviously, I just think it's pretty clear by now that western backed regime change will be followed by a long and brutal sectarian civil war, like Iraq's but worse and with potentially dire consequences for world peace.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Yawn. And I'm sure the families of those persecuted on crude sectarian grounds by al-nusrah and friends would be equally as gracious for your support. Etc Etc.

I don't support them though. I support the people of Syria who rose up against their brutal repressor.

I couldn't give two shits for Assad, obviously, I just think it's pretty clear by now that western backed regime change will be followed by a long and brutal sectarian civil war, like Iraq's but worse and with potentially dire consequences for world peace.

There's a brutal civil war going on now, entirely of Assad's making, and it will continue until he and his goons have gone.

 

[camouflage]

I don't support them though. I support the percentage of people of Syria who rose up against their brutal repressor.




There's a brutal civil war going on now, entirely of Assad's making due to him resisting the rebels by use of his military, and it will continue until he and his goons have gone because regime change is more important than peace as far as I'm concerned.

...to take the liberty.

 

[Poo Flakes]

I don't support them though. I support the people of Syria who rose up against their brutal repressor.

 

[Delroy Booth]

I don't support them though. I support the people of Syria who rose up against their brutal repressor.

Yeah I don't presume that you do, but look I don't "support" Assad either, didn't stop you coming out with your witless comment. What I was doing was taking the piss out of your logic by applying it to yourself.

I just think from looking at the situation I think his staying in power would be the least worst option, for the region and for the people of Syria, as a govt run by vicious armed gangs who subscribe to a Salafist hardline variety of Islam would be even worse than Assad. I think it'll be even worse than the Lebanon war in the 80's, worse than the sectarian war in Iraq post-Saddam, and with dire consequences for regional stability.

Al-Nusrah are what the western media hilariously calls the "rebels" there is no secular democratic "Free Syrian Army" for you to support guilt-free and there hasn't been for a while now. When you say you "support the people of Syria who rose up against their brutal repressor" who are you referring to in the here and now? Which people? Which groups? You do realise that the vast majority of those now engaged in the fight to overthrow Assad, at least their most effective units, are a branch of Al-Queada? The nice liberal protestors who began with the best of intentions and who deserve everyone's support are long gone, this is war being fought out between violent Islamic fundamentalists and the Assadist state. Which of the violent Islamic fundamentalist groups would you like to take over post-Assad? Your platitudes and wishful thinking and invoking vague notions of the "people of Syria" is totally missing the point, in horrible situations like this you don't get the luxury of clear-cut good guys and bad guys to throw your weight behind.

Al-Nusrah is the most effective of the rebel groups, if anyone takes over post-Assad it's them, and I think they're capable of terrible things, I think they're even worse than Assad and if they took over Syria the whole region would start to implode, starting with Iraq, then who knows where it could go?

There's a brutal civil war going on now, entirely of Assad's making, and it will continue until he and his goons have gone.

Until? What makes you think that this will suddenly end when he steps down? You think Al-Nusrah and Al-Queada in Iraq are gonna sit back, say "job done", form a political party and campaign peacefully henceforth in the bright shiny new Syrian democracy? That sounds likely.

Some sort of ceasefire which leaves Assad in power in the western part of the country is probably the priority i should think. Although I reckon Assad will finish these current operations and finish of the "liberation" of Homs first before it'll happen.

 

[Casually Red]

Well they are being out there for an exercise initially, but all the media I've seen have made stories out of officials speaking off the record saying that some of this stuff may remain in Jordan after the exercise is over.

I saw a report a while back there that a very senior Iranian figure made an official visit to Jordan and told them in no uncertain terms that if Syria falls then they will fall too, in a very pointed and confident manner . Apparently theyve shit themselves .