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And next, Syria?

It has been widely reported in the MSM that "the regime" has been responsible for most of these atrocities. Incubator babies was also "widely reported" as was the belief that WMD's were deployable within 45 minutes of an order to use them, and Gaddafi was ruthlessly and indiscriminately bombing his own people.

As the saying goes, the devil is in the detail and seeing as you are allegedly faaaaar more knowledgeable on these matters than I am, it should be easy to you to post the evidence in support of your vague claims.

When you're ready...
:D try reading back through the thread you fool.
 
Revd Andrew Ashdown writes...




I therefore have two key questions:
  1. It is now only the Syrian Red Crescent, the Syrian Army, and the Russians who are providing humanitarian aid to the tens of thousands who have fled East Aleppo. Why are none of the international agencies offering to help them now?
  2. Why is it, given that stories about massacres by the Syrian Army are headline news worldwide, and several international media units are in Aleppo, that there is not one international media agency actually at the Registration Centre talking to the refugees themselves? We were the only ones there. Here are people who have lived through it who are keen to talk, yet the media take at face value unverifiable claims by highly dubious sources. The collapse of any form of reliable investigative journalism in a context of global significance is utterly shocking.
 
I am struggling to get the gist of your argument here.

You are saying that the foreign office was full of liars, always has been, but that our government narratives are basically trustworthy?

And that the BBC has become less trustworthy now because of the internet?

But that Hitchens is wrong to think that our media is now less trustworthy than in the past?

I honestly do not understand where you are coming from. :confused:
Like Mummy and Daddy's position on Santa Claus and teenage virginity British news media always had flaws. There was not some golden age of utter reliability decades ago.

The British media used to be more thoroughly state controlled. Notorious for its establishment complicity and D-Notices. The BBC is very vulnerable to state pressure and easily cowed. It was quickly whipped into line over Iraq for instance. The BBC WS nostalgically referred to was directly funded by the FO for a reason. All the way back to Biafra I can't recall a war that it reported in realtime without evident biases of the British Establishment. There are now more sources to cross check against but many propagate BS. A critical reading was always required.

A grown up should be able to understand that it's not the FO's job or its US/Russian/Syrian/Israeli equivalents to be a font of truth. The FO may also simply be misinformed even when it's not spinning. It spends a lot of time chasing after a Foggy Bottom filled with ill informed staffers fresh from the partisan Campaign Trail. They'll be obediently trailing after no nothing Trumpsters fresh from Fox and Brietbart shortly. The BBC being rather led by British Government/Establishment opinion would only surprise the very naive.

Then there is the Fog of War. In wars its routine to sow misinformation and stage Information Operations. All the actors in Syria, native and foreign, are busily doing this. Journalists have limited ability to operate and tend to produce only a fragment of the picture of a geographically diverse war. Even organisations like the CIA and MI6 who are meant to know what is going on operate in environments of considerable factual uncertainty and often wishful thinking. The Western reaction to the Arab Spring was filled with optimistic misreadings that commentators and the policy community have been slow to abandon. It's a bit infantile to get outraged that authoritative sources may have got it wrong or even propagated outright lies.
 
On Informed Comment Erdogan-Putin Syria Bromance as Turkey accuses US of backing ISIL
...
At the same time that Erdogan appears to have found some common ground with Putin, the increasingly authoritarian and erratic Turkish president turned on the United States, making serious accusations that the US and its 12-nation coalition against Daesh (ISIS, ISIL) have actually secretly been supporting the Daesh fighters.

Hurriyet reports,

““They [anti-ISIL coalition forces] were accusing us of supporting Daesh . . . Now they’ve all vanished and they’re giving support to terrorist groups including Daesh, YPG and the PYD . . . It’s very clear. We have confirmed evidence, with pictures, photos and videos . . .”

...
Well he's only saying what a majority of Iraqis believe on Uncle Sam and IS according to polling. Not that that makes it plausible.

As to US support to other terrorist groups nobody is denying it with the PKK. State just maintain a fiction of total PYD separation from the parent organisation for legal reasons.
 
:D try reading back through the thread you fool.
Soooo...your assertions of what is/isn't "widely accepted" were rather vague and instead of giving specifics you respond with name calling and ask me to wade through a 250 page thread. Okaaaaay...name calling eh? That hardly adds to your supposed credibility, but anyway...

Like I said, when you're ready to post SPECIFIC (non vague) examples of what you regard as evidence to support what you're saying then I'm all ears. I may or may not agree with whatever you post (if you ever get around to it) but I promise not to respond in the same uncivilised manner that some of the more uncouth members in this thread have demonstrated with their cluster cunt bombs.
 
I guess I have to spell it out to you. Aren't you supposed to be an intelligent "non loon"?
Your posts are not coherent or well presented and appear to be just you shouting down on people who have a different opinion and calling them cunts etc. (how very civilised of you). I can't really be arsed with that. If you disagree with what I'm saying and think that it's wrong or inaccurate, then present your case in a civilised manner, without the shouting and name calling. Looks like that might be a bit of a challenge for you though.
I'm banning you from this thread and if you continue being a board-wide pain n the arse, a total ban will follow.
 
Soooo...your assertions of what is/isn't "widely accepted" were rather vague and instead of giving specifics you respond with name calling and ask me to wade through a 250 page thread. Okaaaaay...name calling eh? That hardly adds to your supposed credibility, but anyway...

Like I said, when you're ready to post SPECIFIC (non vague) examples of what you regard as evidence to support what you're saying then I'm all ears. I may or may not agree with whatever you post (if you ever get around to it) but I promise not to respond in the same uncivilised manner that some of the more uncouth members in this thread have demonstrated with their cluster cunt bombs.
Go forth and multiply you clown . :D all the info you might want is already posted in this thread by myself and others. If you can't be arsed to use the search function I am not running around on your behalf. :)
 
Reasons for Putin-Erdogan pact may be temporary - i.e. around Turkish expeditionary forces problems in taking Al-Bab from Daesh and potential for clashes around Aleppo between Turkish backed and Russian backed forces. As with Nazi-Soviet pact, long term both want to gain strategic advantage in the area - so chances of a lasting peace may be slim.

Turkey may have ideas about a regime/Russia -Turkey/"rebel"pincer movement around al Bab stabilising the situation there so that they can move to attack the SDF and YPG in Manbij and Rojava. Russia and the regime presumably want the situation around Aleppo stabilising so they can focus on re-taking Palmyra and trying to relieve Deir Ezzor.

But longer term, regime designs on Idlib province and Turkish occupation of areas seized from Daesh and possibly the SDF are all areas of potential direct and indirect confrontation between Turkey and Russia and their proxies.

Shorter term, we will see if Turkey is able to take Al Bab and then what will happen if they embark on a major offensive against the SDF and YPG with their international volunteers and embedded Western special forces.....
 
I can't see any real problems from a Russian perspective with the Turks and Jordanians having zones of control in Syria. This is a logical negotiated solution for them. There's really no need to fight the rebels to a conclusion or even pursue IS. They get their secure Med Basing and considerable regional clout. It reduces the chances of problems with the belligerent Israelis. The gullible Americans may well also accept it as limiting Iran's influence. The Russians may edge Trump's US out if he's really only interested in bombing the shit out of IS. If they can gradually split Turkey from NATO it's a big win.

Whether the Turks would really go that way despite rampant anti-Americanism is more questionable. Thwarting the PKK is a priority but the Russians are a traditional and very dangerous enemy. Ankara is more likely to want to balance its geopolitical risks. And who knows which way the entirely untrustworthy Trump goes?

Assad will see it differently as he plainly wants all of Syria back. But then he's really not got the manpower even to hold Aleppo. His allies can dictate what real estate he ends up owning and that's probably limited to Useful Syria. For Russia and Iran what does it matter if the countryside burns and Syria is racked by terrorists? If it scares the milquetoasts in DC into tolerating unlikely GWOT allies all well and good. Meanwhile Putin will just cautiously advance his gains while the Americans gibber fearfully over the likes of IS.

Iran won't like such a compromise if it interferes with their GLOC to HA and ability to harass Israel but their goals also appear less maximal than Bashar's. They'll also want to undermine Russia's obvious imperialist moves in the ME. It is what they do. That's were I think Moscow comes a cropper.
 
I can't see any real problems from a Russian perspective with the Turks and Jordanians having zones of control in Syria. This is a logical negotiated solution for them. There's really no need to fight the rebels to a conclusion or even pursue IS. They get their secure Med Basing and considerable regional clout. It reduces the chances of problems with the belligerent Israelis. The gullible Americans may well also accept it as limiting Iran's influence. The Russians may edge Trump's US out if he's really only interested in bombing the shit out of IS. If they can gradually split Turkey from NATO it's a big win.

Whether the Turks would really go that way despite rampant anti-Americanism is more questionable. Thwarting the PKK is a priority but the Russians are a traditional and very dangerous enemy. Ankara is more likely to want to balance its geopolitical risks. And who knows which way the entirely untrustworthy Trump goes?

Assad will see it differently as he plainly wants all of Syria back. But then he's really not got the manpower even to hold Aleppo. His allies can dictate what real estate he ends up owning and that's probably limited to Useful Syria. For Russia and Iran what does it matter if the countryside burns and Syria is racked by terrorists? If it scares the milquetoasts in DC into tolerating unlikely GWOT allies all well and good. Meanwhile Putin will just cautiously advance his gains while the Americans gibber fearfully over the likes of IS.

Iran won't like such a compromise if it interferes with their GLOC to HA and ability to harass Israel but their goals also appear less maximal than Bashar's. They'll also want to undermine Russia's obvious imperialist moves in the ME. It is what they do. That's were I think Moscow comes a cropper.
Well, yes, there will be an awful lot of backs waiting to be stabbed, and carpets waiting to be pulled out from underneath, regardless of "accidents"......
Trump is completely unpredictable and Erdogan very foolish if he thinks he can just sweep away the SDF/YPG at little cost or risk......
 
Well, yes, there will be an awful lot of backs waiting to be stabbed, and carpets waiting to be pulled out from underneath, regardless of "accidents"......
Trump is completely unpredictable and Erdogan very foolish if he thinks he can just sweep away the SDF/YPG at little cost or risk......
Well the Turks have been unsuccessfully trying to eliminate the PKK for decades while the latter has been failing to do much of use to a very durable Turkish state. Erdogan will use such a conflict as a rallying point to consolidate power. It's worked well for him so far.

The PKK's biggest revolutionary achievement Rojava is fragile though. It's a poor, arid state created by largely by US airpower. It has no sincere friends and very real enemies: an overwhelming majority of Syrians, Turks and probably even most Kurds across the region. What it needed was Apo's peace with Ankara not Qandil's daft war in SE Turkey. The only optimistic comparison I can think of is ersatz Israel in the 40s.
 
That is completely untrue. I have friends working for a charity that are working from 5am until midnight providing aid to people who have forcibly removed from eastern Aleppo.

LIAR.
His faciebie is full of mainly reposts of stuff from Vanessa Beeley, who writes for 21 Century wire; "The best of sharp, intelligent commentary on the things which regularly confuse Wallmart shoppers and CNN watchers..."
Turns out the things that regularly confuse Walmart shoppers is mostly the situation in Aleppo, with the odd Pro Putin link thrown in just for variety. I also regrettably looked at that page for too long and discovered "Barrel Bombs!" Is a meme :(

Look who turns up on their feed after a wee scroll down:

IMG_0295.PNG
Can you be a little more... specific?

I was reading his blog the other day. He seems pretty reasonable. :confused:
From his own blog, he supports the regime on the basis that they are protecting the Christian leaders and that the west support brutal Islamic dictators so why not a secular one. He admits they've committed atrocities but he's being terribly reasonable about it. He also claims to present a wide range of voices, just not wide enough to include anyone that opposes the regime. Other signs that he's entirely Pro-Assad aren't hard to pick out in the blog.
So it's nice sectarianism and palatable hypocrisy, not the bad kind.
 
Can you be a little more... specific?

I was reading his blog the other day. He seems pretty reasonable. :confused:

I would have thought it was pretty obvious that I meant this bit:

"It is now only the Syrian Red Crescent, the Syrian Army, and the Russians who are providing humanitarian aid to the tens of thousands who have fled East Aleppo. Why are none of the international agencies offering to help them now?"

It's a blatant lie.
 
His faciebie is full of mainly reposts of stuff from Vanessa Beeley, who writes for 21 Century wire; "The best of sharp, intelligent commentary on the things which regularly confuse Wallmart shoppers and CNN watchers..."
Turns out the things that regularly confuse Walmart shoppers is mostly the situation in Aleppo, with the odd Pro Putin link thrown in just for variety. I also regrettably looked at that page for too long and discovered "Barrel Bombs!" Is a meme :(

They spoke together in Bristol last month.
 
Odd... the US State Dept seemed to be saying the same as Andrew Ashdown a few days ago:

QUESTION: And on the humanitarian aid, any update on whether humanitarian aid is being --

MR KIRBY: Yeah, I’ve seen no reports of aid getting in. I mean, as of coming out here, I’m not aware of any aid still getting in to the people of Aleppo

Daily Press Briefing - December 21, 2016

RT clearly don't agree: US claims ‘no reports’ of Aleppo aid deliveries as Russia calls for intl relief efforts
 
I would have thought it was pretty obvious that I meant this bit:

"It is now only the Syrian Red Crescent, the Syrian Army, and the Russians who are providing humanitarian aid to the tens of thousands who have fled East Aleppo. Why are none of the international agencies offering to help them now?"

It's a blatant lie.

What other charities or NGOs are providing aid to people in Allepo ? He's not talking about those who fled to Idlib with Al Qaeda . He's plainly talking about the dire situation that exists for those who have opted to stay .
 
His faciebie is full of mainly reposts of stuff from Vanessa Beeley, who writes for 21 Century wire; "The best of sharp, intelligent commentary on the things which regularly confuse Wallmart shoppers and CNN watchers..."
Turns out the things that regularly confuse Walmart shoppers is mostly the situation in Aleppo, with the odd Pro Putin link thrown in just for variety. I also regrettably looked at that page for too long and discovered "Barrel Bombs!" Is a meme :(

Look who turns up on their feed after a wee scroll down:

View attachment 97923

From his own blog, he supports the regime on the basis that they are protecting the Christian leaders and that the west support brutal Islamic dictators so why not a secular one. He admits they've committed atrocities but he's being terribly reasonable about it. He also claims to present a wide range of voices, just not wide enough to include anyone that opposes the regime. Other signs that he's entirely Pro-Assad aren't hard to pick out in the blog.
So it's nice sectarianism and palatable hypocrisy, not the bad kind.


He says a great deal more than that . He's not being sectarian in the slightest and you are being highly disingenuous and dishonest .
 
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