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And next, Syria?

Doctor Carrot said:
If the Syrian people actually choose that through actual free and fair elections then so be it but some how I doubt it.
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Finally, a glint of rationality. You can have your doubts, I just reckon the Syrians should at least get their chance to work their differences out in away that doesn't involve bashing their collective faces against the wall that is war.

Assad may be a bastard, so why on earth would you want to make him be the multi-ethnic/multi-sectarian/secular Syrians only hope of not getting head-chopped? If you're not a fanatic then stop talking like one, let them have their out from between the rock and the hard place ffs. All those people you mentioned really should be tried for crimes against humanity imo, wouldn't like Washington to get hammered because <POTUS here> is in charge mind, strikes me as deeply unfair that the Syrians should go through all this because of the history of the Assad family or because Qatar wants to supply gas to the EU.
 
teqniq said:
If you can be bothered to trawl back through this thread you will discover that a lot of sources are from Twitter and from Syrian people who were actually there. The possible Turkish involvement in the gas attacks as expounded by Seymour Hersh remains unproven.
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From Syrian " activists " . Anonymous fuckwits on the Saudi and Turkish payroll.
 
You really aren't worth the trouble anymore. It must be deluded liar Thursday or something. The man who consistently evades awkward questions/issues and also lies whenever it seems expedient.
 
camouflage said:
The plague of war? bit harsh in my opinion.
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What else were you expecting Assad's actions to be met with? Flowers in gun barrels? Protesters came out onto the streets in 2011 and they were met with live gun fire, arrest, torture etc. That's what happened. You can pretend America had some huge role in stoking descent and deny the Syrian people agency all you like but that's what happened.

It's interesting how you're all for giving them agency through elections now with Assad as an option but you support the man who denied them that in the first place. What makes you think he can govern a unified country that he's spent the last five years destroying? Even if he's elected in what you deem free and fair elections it's still unlikely isn't it? Cameron was elected in elections deemed free and fair and yet only around 20% voted for him. If a similar outcome happens in Syria in what universe do you think that will go swimmingly?
 
Doctor Carrot said:
What else were you expecting Assad's actions to be met with? Flowers in gun barrels? Protesters came out onto the streets in 2011 and they were met with live gun fire, arrest, torture etc. That's what happened. You can pretend America had some huge role in stoking descent and deny the Syrian people agency all you like but that's what happened.

It's interesting how you're all for giving them agency through elections now with Assad as an option but you support the man who denied them that in the first place. What makes you think he can govern a unified country that he's spent the last five years destroying? Even if he's elected in what you deem free and fair elections it's still unlikely isn't it? Cameron was elected in elections deemed free and fair and yet only around 20% voted for him. If a similar outcome happens in Syria in what universe do you think that will go swimmingly?
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War doesn't effect the comfort of whatever scummy politician you want justice applied to, it grinds up the poor and the working class and the middle class and shits em out as corpses and refugees and the traumatically entrenched. I don't deny the Syrians came out in protest in 2011, I allege that their attempt to reform their system was hijacked and their agency was denied them by cynical foreign powers that saw the process as weakness and gleefully attempted to exploit it with snipers and bombs. Standard regime change 101, the method has been applied quite widely, each time though it's rendered in simplistic and deeply misleading terms.

Now Assad whatever he represented before, represents the coherance of the Syrian state, which is the only apparatus that can deliver security and law and political reform to Syria as a polity and frankly that's been massively undermined by the war, it may already be too late. Look what happens when states fail, look at Libya, things don't improve they get worse and any chance of the vital public machine to be re/claimed by the population and/or reprogrammed disappears into the void of warlordism and/or foreign domination. To change the Syrian government without killing the host (Syria) shouldn't be done by force, even coups usually result in purges... if you think the forceful downfall of Assad would be the beginning of a bright new day then you're sorely mistaken. Assad hasn't spent the last five years destroying the country, the process of conflict has done that.

To change the government without killing the host? Talks, politics, negotiation, multilateral agreement, people sitting around tables and talking with people they hate.
 
camouflage said:
War doesn't effect the comfort of whatever scummy politician you want justice applied to, it grinds up the poor and the working class and the middle class and shits em out as corpses and refugees and the traumatically entrenched. I don't deny the Syrians came out in protest in 2011, I allege that their attempt to reform their system was hijacked and their agency was denied them by cynical foreign powers that saw the process as weakness and gleefully attempted to exploit it with snipers and bombs. Standard regime change 101, the method has been applied quite widely, each time though it's rendered in simplistic and deeply misleading terms.

Now Assad whatever he represented before, represents the coherance of the Syrian state, which is the only apparatus that can deliver security and law and political reform to Syria as a polity and frankly that's been massively undermined by the war, it may already be too late. Look what happens when states fail, look at Libya, things don't improve they get worse and any chance of the vital public machine to be re/claimed by the population and/or reprogrammed disappears into the void of warlordism and/or foreign domination. To change the Syrian government without killing the host (Syria) shouldn't be done by force, even coups usually result in purges... if you think the forceful downfall of Assad would be the beginning of a bright new day then you're sorely mistaken. Assad hasn't spent the last five years destroying the country, the process of conflict has done that.

To change the government without killing the host? Talks, politics, negotiation, multilateral agreement, people sitting around tables and talking with people they hate.
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Your talking to people who don't give 2 fucks what actually happens in Syria , only that their team wins . Were Syria to disintegrate ..which it certainly would if they had their way..they'd just shrug their shoulders as they did after they rejoiced at Libyas defeat .
They don't care . That's why they're solely focused on the one issue..." Assad must go "...no matter what . They couldn't care less about the what . Despite it being glaringly obvious to anyone with half a brain what the "what " entails. They'd call it the " birth pangs of democracy " for a bit..and then just shrug. And then blame the disaster on Assad and Putin . Fuck em, they've lost now . And I'm pretty glad about that .
 
camouflage said:
War doesn't effect the comfort of whatever scummy politician you want justice applied to, it grinds up the poor and the working class and the middle class and shits em out as corpses and refugees and the traumatically entrenched. I don't deny the Syrians came out in protest in 2011, I allege that their attempt to reform their system was hijacked and their agency was denied them by cynical foreign powers that saw the process as weakness and gleefully attempted to exploit it with snipers and bombs. Standard regime change 101, the method has been applied quite widely, each time though it's rendered in simplistic and deeply misleading terms.
Click to expand...

They were shot at by the government they were protesting against. Why do you always miss this bit out? You can allege the sky is green but that doesn't make it so. No one disgarees the jihadists have been funded by foreign interests but Putin's argument, from his own mouth, is rebels were armed by western powers and they ended up in the hands of jihadists so therefore all rebels are jihadists. This isn't standard regime change as you put it. Weren't the kurds armed by US too? Does that mean the US were attempting regime change via the Kurds?



Now Assad whatever he represented before, represents the coherance of the Syrian state, which is the only apparatus that can deliver security and law and political reform to Syria as a polity and frankly that's been massively undermined by the war, it may already be too late. Look what happens when states fail, look at Libya, things don't improve they get worse and any chance of the vital public machine to be re/claimed by the population and/or reprogrammed disappears into the void of warlordism and/or foreign domination. To change the Syrian government without killing the host (Syria) shouldn't be done by force, even coups usually result in purges... if you think the forceful downfall of Assad would be the beginning of a bright new day then you're sorely mistaken. Assad hasn't spent the last five years destroying the country, the process of conflict has done that.

To change the government without killing the host? Talks, politics, negotiation, multilateral agreement, people sitting around tables and talking with people they hate.
Click to expand...

Assad has already said him leaving is a red line so he must mean what he says. Do you think he's going to agree to free and fair elections that are immaculately run? I seriously doubt it. I agree, everyone agrees, talking is the best way forward but I just do not see how Syria can be lead by him in future, elected or not, without strife.
 
Doctor Carrot said:
They were shot at by the government they were protesting against. Why do you always miss this bit out? You can allege the sky is green but that doesn't make it so. No one disgarees the jihadists have been funded by foreign interests but Putin's argument, from his own mouth, is rebels were armed by western powers and they ended up in the hands of jihadists so therefore all rebels are jihadists. This isn't standard regime change as you put it. Weren't the kurds armed by US too? Does that mean the US were attempting regime change via the Kurds?





Assad has already said him leaving is a red line so he must mean what he says. Do you think he's going to agree to free and fair elections that are immaculately run? I seriously doubt it. I agree, everyone agrees, talking is the best way forward but I just do not see how Syria can be lead by him in future, elected or not, without strife.
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Well we'll just have to wait and see what comes of Geneva, at least there's now a Geneva to wait and see what comes of. Before it was just the promise of endless war and people refusing to even attend negotiations until their demands had been met.
 
Casually Red said:
He's peddling that fake child castration trope again . Kid was riddled with gunfire during an armed assault on an army compound he very unwisely accompanied, egged on by mosque preachers . He was dead well before he got into custody . He lay unclaimed and unidentified for a prolonged period and decomposed, bits simply fell off . That's what happens in a desert climate and no embalming . Assad met the family himself .

Youve noted I'm sure all those pics of dead Syrian rebels, every single time you see them the boots are off, belts opened, trousers tugged down . Every time . You know why ? Because that's to stop the feet and other bits falling off by the time someone arrives to take the bodies away . Which can take time . If you don't do that when you lift them by the feet all you're holding onto is 2 sloppy boots . That's what happened that kid . He decomposed after being riddled by a Kalashnikov during a rebel assault .
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Or so RT or some other propaganda outlet told you, you goat-rimming shitwit.
 
irf520 said:
The US and its allies/arse kissers use special magic precision weapons that magically only kill the bad guys. Whereas Assad and those horrible Russians use nasty imprecise bombs or, worst of all, barrel bombs that just kill everyone. And they torture children. And did I mention they drown puppies and kittens as well?
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Anyone who believes that one superpower side or other is a better choice, is either stupid or a cunt, or a stupid cunt.
 
teqniq said:
You really aren't worth the trouble anymore. It must be deluded liar Thursday or something. The man who consistently evades awkward questions/issues and also lies whenever it seems expedient.
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Post up a few more anonymous jihadi sources why don't you. They're usually a good laugh . Assad hasn't eaten a baby in over a week now .
 
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