American teenager stabs himself to death in front of an open mic audience

[8ball]

No, I think if people felt more cared for by others they'd be less likely to kill themselves. If you don't think anyone has your back, killing yourself starts to look like a good option.

People kill themselves for various reasons, including when they feel they have failed in their obligations to others.

Often when they do, they feel that others would be better off without them.
Being 'other oriented' cuts both ways.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

You never answered my question about which moral philosophy you subscribe to.

 

[8ball]

You never answered my question about which moral philosophy you subscribe to.

Well, considering that 'Philosophy' can relate to the academic discipline, or the contents of the discipline, or conversely it can be used in the more simplistic 'my philosophy is...' sense, I didn't figure it was a serious question, I thought you were just pretending to misconstrue semantics in order to play to the gallery.

But since you asked nicely, I guess I consider myself to have largely 19th Century enlightenment type values with a dash of anarchism.

Shades of Marx at times, but mostly the Groucho variety.

You?

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Well, considering that 'Philosophy' can relate to the academic discipline, or the contents of the discipline, or conversely it can be used in the more simplistic 'my philosophy is...' sense, I didn't figure it was a serious question, I thought you were just pretending to misconstrue semantics in order to play to the gallery.

But since you asked nicely, I guess I consider myself to have largely 19th Century enlightenment type values with a dash of anarchism.

Shades of Marx at times, but mostly the Groucho variety.

You?

I'm more of the Harpo variety with shades of Communitarianism. I also have a dharma lineage through Master Dogan.

 

[8ball]

I'm more of the Harpo variety with shades of Communitarianism. I also have a dharma lineage through Master Dogan.[/QUOTE]

I know you won't agree with this but I tend to feel that communitarianism, while its heart is in the right place, skates a little too close to authoritarianism for my taste.

Ethics becomes politics [I]really[/I] quickly, doesn't it?
:hmm:

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

I know you won't agree with this but I tend to feel that communitarianism, while its heart is in the right place, skates a little too close to authoritarianism for my taste.

Ethics becomes politics really quickly, doesn't it?

The personal is political.

I was tempted to mention Kant, but I couldn't quite fit his theory of Libertarian Paternalism into my world-view.

I know we won't agree on this topic, but I suspect that we're just peeing on different sides of the same tree.

 

[Brubricker]

Authoritarianism is always possible in all social systems be it through guns or votes. It's not a rebuke of any particular system. It's a human problem.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'm torn on this one as I think I understand both where Ywoman and 8ball are coming from. But I do think that, ultimately, suicide is pretty much the only act that is beyond moral judgement. That and maybe air guitar.

 

[hipipol]

yeh like those buddhist monks in vietnam

think you're on the wrong side of Mishimas message guy

 

[hipipol]

Well, considering that 'Philosophy' can relate to the academic discipline, or the contents of the discipline, or conversely it can be used in the more simplistic 'my philosophy is...' sense, I didn't figure it was a serious question, I thought you were just pretending to misconstrue semantics in order to play to the gallery.

But since you asked nicely, I guess I consider myself to have largely 19th Century enlightenment type values with a dash of anarchism.

Shades of Marx at times, but mostly the Groucho variety.

You?

Moral philosophy is a recognised field of study in its own right, and represents the content as oposed to an overarching bollocks about 'over of Knowlede' - you are thus illuminated as a pedantic git, but get it clear before you try to correct

If you vant tell the differnce, dont critisize the abilty of others to discriminate

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

suicide is not quite the same but the underlying concept that a person has the right to chose the way they live and die is not changed

you may not like it when some one you car about decides to to take up demolition derby or joins a guerilla fighting force or commits suicide but the idea that someone else has the right to control someone else's life is a much more disturbing one

just my take on it you may feel different but i would hesitate before throwing around terms like immature just because someone's thoughts are different

It's not about controlling someone's life, imo. It's about a person's view of their place in the world. In the end, and in absolute terms, a person has full control to do what they choose. But it might be a more mature outlook to take into consideration how one's actions will affect others, rather than simply making decisions based solely upon egocentric considerations.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

i would have thought that anyone who is committed to ending their life has gone past the point of being able to fulfil the role of being a parent.

It's arguable that when an otherwise young and able bodied person decides to commit suicide, there's a very real possibility that a mental disorder or derangement like depression is present, and that if the derangement wasn't there, the suicidal impulse wouldn't be there either.

So it might be true that a suicidal parent can't fulfil their parental obligations; but neither can one who has a broken pelvis. But in either case, once rehabilitated, the person is fully capable of getting back to parenting.

To put it plainly, I don't believe that suicide is a rational choice unless considerations like terminal illness etc are present.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

What I don't agree with is that you have obligations to others my merely existing. .

You have moral obligations to them, not absolute obligations.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

You think people kill themselves due to an overabundance of self-esteem now?

More an overabundance of self-preoccupation.

 

[purves grundy]

"On November 25, 1970, Mishima and four members of the Tatenokai, under pretext, visited the commandant of the Ichigaya Camp — the Tokyo headquarters of the Eastern Command of Japan's Self-Defense Forces.[9] Inside, they barricaded the office and tied the commandant to his chair. With a prepared manifesto and banner listing their demands, Mishima stepped onto the balcony to address the soldiers gathered below."

Bit like taking over Sandhurst over here

What he did next - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yukio_Mishima

I think it takes someone who has left all interest in its true impact on others out of their thoughts

My Japanese ex was obsessed with Mishima. Bit worrying at times...

 

[8ball]

More an overabundance of self-preoccupation.

You make a couple of reasonable points and then come out with a turd like this...

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

You make a couple of reasonable points and then come out with a turd like this...

And why not? I take a shit regularly, at least once a day.

 

[Corax]

If you don't want any obligations to others, then feel free to pursue a life as a self-sufficient hermit. Otherwise, you owe people to some extent, and they you.

None of which is relevant to suicide anyway given my previous point on mental health.

 

[ViolentPanda]

While I would agree that everyone has the right to self-direction. I'd disagree with the idea that we don't "belong" to other people in a moral sense. There's a whole host of people who have sweat equity in you -- your parents, your kids, etc. If you ask most people "who are you?" They usually respond with a description of their relationship to others.

Unless you're unfortunate enough for them to reply "I'm that mean motherfucker called Staggerlee" and then stab you in the throat, anyway.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

It's not about controlling someone's life, imo. It's about a person's view of their place in the world. In the end, and in absolute terms, a person has full control to do what they choose. But it might be a more mature outlook to take into consideration how one's actions will affect others, rather than simply making decisions based solely upon egocentric considerations.

now this is somewhat confusing two points. there is the consideration of others and there is the choice you make.

a person may well consider other but yet still make the choice to kill themselves for whatever reason.

i think it's unwise to throw around accusations of immaturity. it's basically just name calling.

To put it plainly, I don't believe that suicide is a rational choice unless considerations like terminal illness etc are present.

well this is a bit of a catch 22 position. suicide should not be an option if the person isn't being rational and a person isn't being rational if they wish to commit suicide. not although personally i can't imagine the mind set that would provoke such a decision but i would like to say that a person should have the choice to end their life if they so wish even if it was against my own philosophy.

 

[bluestreak]

at least he apologised first. that shows good manners.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

i think it's unwise to throw around accusations of immaturity. it's basically just name calling. .

No one's been accused. It's my conclusion about the particular type of outlook I was discussing; and I wasn't aware that anyone had come out and said that that was their personal viewpoint.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

well this is a bit of a catch 22 position. suicide should not be an option if the person isn't being rational and a person isn't being rational if they wish to commit suicide. not although personally i can't imagine the mind set that would provoke such a decision but i would like to say that a person should have the choice to end their life if they so wish even if it was against my own philosophy.

. I was trying to wrap my head around the antecedent mindset of someone who isn't terminally ill or in a similar extremity, who considers suicide. If suicidal thoughts do arise from a state of depression or other alteration of thinking, then it seems as unfortunate if that person ends up succumbing to what is essentially an illness, as it would if someone broke their leg, left it untreated, and they died of gangrene.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

In the end, I wouldn't pass laws to somehow remove suicide as a choice for people.

I just don't like it, is all. I think each of us is a unique and precious entity, and I grieve to think that some of us voluntarily choose death. I know that's how it is, but I don't have to like it.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

This isn't totally apropos the thread, but it works into the concept of individual vs group which does, and about which I want to think a bit more before posting. But in the meantime.

I attended the Vaisakhi celebration in Surrey today. I went to one last week in Vancouver. There are, I believe, political reasons why there are two instead of one.

Vancouver and the area that the parade takes place, is relatively polyglot, although with an emphasis on people from India and especially the Punjab. The celebration is overwhelmingly Sikh, but there is a noticeable minority of non Sikhs in attendance.

Surrey has a much larger Sikh population that is more concentrated in certain areas. The parade in Surrey attracts 100,000 - 200,000 or more; in Vancouver, a good turnout is 50,000. In Surrey, non Sikhs are in attendance, but in very small numbers, relatively.

I think there is a comfort and a relaxation in your own neighborhood, with your neighbors, especially when you are a minority in the general community. The politics of Khalistan are more evident in Surrey, but more important for what I'm talking about, the religion is more evident. At one point, we were walking with the parade and the many people in the street following along. We found ourselves beside a truck with loudspeakers, broadcasting a somewhat hypnotic song that everyone on the street save us and a few others, were singing along to. We were with the float for a few blocks: at one point, we found ourselves amongst a group - a few hundred strong at least - who had cymbals, finger cymbals, cymbals in a row on wood instruments, keeping time and singing. After a time, I found that I wasn't taking photos anymore. I was just in the crowd, listening and walking. It was a moving and emotional experience.

I asked someone what the words were about. They were about the meaning of God. It was the unselfconscious devotion of thousands of followers of this religion.

We nonbelievers tend to laugh at, belittle these sorts of experiences. But they help explain the power, the pull of religion. It is in part the commonality of direction, the unity. I think it's something that we crave, and our society is wanting when it comes to delivering it.

All in all, a good day, with lots to think about.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

This isn't totally apropos the thread, but it works into the concept of individual vs group which does, and about which I want to think a bit more before posting. But in the meantime.

I attended the Vaisakhi celebration in Surrey today. I went to one last week in Vancouver. There are, I believe, political reasons why there are two instead of one.

Vancouver and the area that the parade takes place, is relatively polyglot, although with an emphasis on people from India and especially the Punjab. The celebration is overwhelmingly Sikh, but there is a noticeable minority of non Sikhs in attendance.

Surrey has a much larger Sikh population that is more concentrated in certain areas. The parade in Surrey attracts 100,000 - 200,000 or more; in Vancouver, a good turnout is 50,000. In Surrey, non Sikhs are in attendance, but in very small numbers, relatively.

I think there is a comfort and a relaxation in your own neighborhood, with your neighbors, especially when you are a minority in the general community. The politics of Khalistan are more evident in Surrey, but more important for what I'm talking about, the religion is more evident. At one point, we were walking with the parade and the many people in the street following along. We found ourselves beside a truck with loudspeakers, broadcasting a somewhat hypnotic song that everyone on the street save us and a few others, were singing along to. We were with the float for a few blocks: at one point, we found ourselves amongst a group - a few hundred strong at least - who had cymbals, finger cymbals, cymbals in a row on wood instruments, keeping time and singing. After a time, I found that I wasn't taking photos anymore. I was just in the crowd, listening and walking. It was a moving and emotional experience.

I asked someone what the words were about. They were about the meaning of God. It was the unselfconscious devotion of thousands of followers of this religion.

We nonbelievers tend to laugh at, belittle these sorts of experiences. But they help explain the power, the pull of religion. It is in part the commonality of direction, the unity. I think it's something that we crave, and our society is wanting when it comes to delivering it.

All in all, a good day, with lots to think about.

Yeh, a bit off topic, but I like listening to the Muslim call to prayer on Shortwave. Usually it comes through about the time I'm doing dishes.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

. I was trying to wrap my head around the antecedent mindset of someone who isn't terminally ill or in a similar extremity, who considers suicide. If suicidal thoughts do arise from a state of depression or other alteration of thinking, then it seems as unfortunate if that person ends up succumbing to what is essentially an illness, as it would if someone broke their leg, left it untreated, and they died of gangrene.

^This.

One of the things I find disturbing is the trend I see where if someone makes a choice like that, no one thinks they have the right to make the case for the other side. There was a series of suicides earlier this year (9 in about two weeks) where I live. They interviewed some of the kids who knew them and they all knew what was going on. They said that "It was his choice, I didn't have the right to do anything to stop him." Well, yes they did. They've got free-will too. Maybe they should have used it.

 

[gavman]

I don't think that anyone who decides to do this is really at a point where they're going to think through all the consequences for other people clearly. I think some people do kill themselves to "fuck up" other people, out of anger, fear or desperation, to some that isn't a consideration but it's always a tragedy for everyone involved.

the aim should be to cause the least possible hassle or trauma to anyone else; self burial would be the zenith.
inflicting yourself on others in public just seems...selfish

 

[gavman]

In many ways, suicide is the ultimate selfish act.

not if there's no-one to miss you