Afghanistan: Mission Accomplished

[kebabking]

Whenever it happened the end would be thus. Biden done it quick so that none of it is on his hands, he didn’t cause this, he ended it, it had to end at some point and when it did the Afghans/Taliban would do what they are doing.

Has anyone got a solution to to the Taliban imposing their shitty rule on the place? Any suggestions at all?
Nope.

Biden’s getting a heap of shit over it but it had to happen at some point. In my mind it says he is a strong leader.

I see what you're saying - it takes a great deal of psychological strength to cut your losses when something has gone badly wrong - but the way this has been done is catastrophic, and reflects far more badly on Biden than whatever kudus he might get for doing it in principle.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I see what you're saying - it takes a great deal of psychological strength to cut your losses when something has gone badly wrong - but the way this has been done is catastrophic, and reflects far more badly on Biden than whatever kudus he might get for doing it in principle.

What should he have done with the shitshow he inherited (for once this was not a Trump shitshow either, he just kicked that can all the way down the road), how could this have ended in any other way?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

^^^sounds aggressive, really not, just would be keen to hear what alternatives there were.

 

[Dogsauce]

However what came across was perception of locals that western aid had not got to the poor rural areas. Basic stuff like running water, roads.

Aid had been diverted to larger urban cities.

As the article points out nothing had been done to decrease inequality.

People complained that under official government you had to pay bribes to get things done.

Rural areas were lawless before Taliban take over

Taliban were at pains to say they wanted to end this corruption, bring development to neglected rural areas and enforce a rough and ready egalitarianism.

Western bombing of rural areas had caused some to have more sympathy for Taliban. Even if attitude to women and banning western music didn't.


So article is right the so called market ked reforms that aid was based on made bad situation worse.

The article does talk of land reform being necessary. I didn't see this in the two TV news reports.

It's also I thought something that led to opposition to the first communist regime. They tried to bring in land reform.

So I wonder if Taliban would do this.

I think the Taliban held some support last time round as they were against crime and corruption, their ’morality police’ role included being tough on crime. In a notoriously corrupt country I can see how that would sell well to the powerless. Whether it holds up when tribal loyalties will still be strong who knows.

 

[MrSki]

Not read the whole thread so not sure if this has been posted before but it is terrible but sadly I suppose not unexpected.

 

[Brainaddict]

rory stewart being rolled out on sky news - at least he knows what he is on about

He does and he doesn't. Certainly better than the opinions of random columnists, but having read his book I do think he has a somewhat colonial lens on things, and despite to some extent 'knowing' the cultures there he can't leave behind his position in a certain class.

 

[kebabking]

What should he have done with the shitshow he inherited (for once this was not a Trump shitshow either, he just kicked that can all the way down the road), how could this have ended in any other way?

The initial thing was that he gave NATO 48 hours warning before announcing it, the Afghan state got about 4 hours warning.

He then made clear that any non-US force could not expect either US logistics support, or serious diplomatic support to keep things like overflight rights going.

The disengagement plan has been sped up, with key locations - like Bagram - which have a huge impact on the defence of Kabul, just abandoned long before they needed to be.

The rushed, disjointed, US-centric way he's done it has massively undermined whatever Afghan army morale there was - he's explicitly said 'make a deal with the Taliban, on their terms, or die without US support. So they have done.

He left no time in the withdrawal process to get the vunerables out, or cope with 'friction', the 'stuff will go wrong' factor.

US air support could have remained in place, and by saying so it's pretty unlikely that this catastrophic fall would have taken place. I agree that the Taliban would undoubtedly have taken over when US support ended, but the fundamental debacle is in saying that US will end, then ending US support, and then trying to get people out and coming to a real politic accommodation with the Taliban.

He put his cards face up on the table, told everyone he had no stake, and then tried to play poker.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Other than getting out all those who had assisted the coalition of the willing as Bush called it, I really don’t see what else he could do where the end result would be more favourable. He should have helped those who have helped the US. Morally and also if they expect help in the future.

 

[bimble]

This interview (not new) explains biden’s point of view pretty clearly.




eta can't argue with what he says there but at the same time it sounds like he expected this, just wanted it all over as quickly as possible, no matter the consequences or the details, like if he can't save the whole world then fuck it let it all burn, nothing in between, no strategy just ideology.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

The graveyard of empires

 

[not-bono-ever]

Afghan president flew to Tajikistan: Tajik media - Xinhua | English.news.cn

www.xinhuanet.com

"NUR-SULTAN, Aug. 15 (Xinhua) -- Afghan President Mohammad Ashraf Ghani flew from Kabul to Tajikistan, Tajikistan's Asia-Plus news agency reported Sunday, citing an Afghan government official.

According to the official Sajad Nuristani, Ghani was accompanied by his national security adviser Hamdullah Muhib.

Nuristani noted that after Tajikistan, Ghani would fly to an unidentified third country."

i hear Antibes is very pleasant sat this time of yeh

 

[Sprocket.]

Apparently Tajikistan was the best bet as Iran, Pakistan or China may have been more problematic.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

This interview (not new) explains biden’s point of view pretty clearly.




eta can't argue with what he says there but at the same time it sounds like he expected this, just wanted it all over as quickly as possible, no matter the consequences or the details, like if he can't save the whole world then fuck it let it all burn, nothing in between, no strategy just ideology.

His reasoning is sound. It comes from what the fuck was the US doing there in the first place and carries on with what good would happen if it stayed there. He has the balls to call it, I say fair play to that.

 

[not-bono-ever]

Apparently Tajikistan was the best bet as Iran, Pakistan or China may have been more problematic.

Ghani got an honorary doctorate from the tajiks recently

 

[Sprocket.]

Ghani got an honorary doctorate from the tajiks recently

They may want it back next week!

 

[Dogsauce]

Coalition of the unwilling

 

[AmateurAgitator]

Deleted

 

[Smokeandsteam]

This PTO podcast is the best thing I’ve listened to on the subject.

Paul Rogers joins PTO to talk about the Taliban's advance across Afghanistan and the possibility of an imminent takeover of the capital Kabul. We spoke about why the Taliban have been so successful against the more numerous and better equipped and supported Afghan government forces, what the Taliban's victory might mean for India, Pakistan and China, and finally we discussed how history will judge Western military intervention in the country.

https://www.patreon.com/posts/54867918

Also good:

 

[planetgeli]

Al Jazeera are reporting that those who worked with the government and military will be offered amnesty.

'Amnesty'. Like the 'negotiations' they had with the President this morning.

A lot of people are fucked here.

 

[Brainaddict]

The graveyard of empires

Can't say I'm a fan of this phrase. I don't think it leaves enough space for actual thinking about the history of Afghanistan and the experience of people living there. This paper has a good abstract, I could also send the pdf to anyone interested https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19436149.2019.1633745

 

[Smokeandsteam]

eta can't argue with what he says there but at the same time it sounds like he expected this, just wanted it all over as quickly as possible, no matter the consequences or the details, like if he can't save the whole world then fuck it let it all burn, nothing in between, no strategy just ideology.

Biden is the leader of liberal democracy. The order that aspires to spread it’s shit politics to every corner of the works. He controls the most powerful military in the world. His voice carries significant weight at diplomatic level.

If Trump had ordered Afghanistan to be abandoned to medieval fascists the liberals/PMC (even those who are card carrying members of the anti-imperialism of fools tendency) would be outraged. Are there other easy options? No. Why? Because of the disaster of the 20 year long botched invasion. However, as you say, his decision to basically say to women, children, non bigots: you’re on your own, is fucking shameful.

 

[brogdale]

fucking hell

 

[Yossarian]

Ted Rall called it right back in December 2001.

we ought to tally our dead, write up our losses, and count ourselves lucky to still be called a superpower

How We Lost Afghanistan - The Village Voice

DASHT-E QALEH, AFGHANISTAN—We’ve lost this war. So how much will it cost? In 1842, the First Afghan War ended with an infamous retreat across the Hindu Kush that cost between 10,000 and 15,000 Brits and their camp followers their lives. One guy, a Dr. Brydon, survived the Afghans to tell the...

www.villagevoice.com

His view this week on critics of the US withdrawal:

If they had really cared about gender equality on the other side of the planet, they would have criticized the soon-to-be-overthrown puppet government in Kabul for tolerating honor killings, child marriage, systemic rape and even stonings throughout their benighted 20-year rule under U.S. subjugation. They were silent and therefore complicit. Afghan women never stopped suffering; American liberals simply stopped caring.

Stop Listening to the Pro-War Idiots Who Got Afghanistan Wrong | Ted Rall's Rallblog

You’re going to read a lot of Afghan War postmortems in the coming days. Some have already been published. Don’t listen to anyone who was ever in favor of occupying Afghanistan. They were wrong for thinking that the United States could have won. They were stupid to think that invading...

rall.com

 

[AmateurAgitator]

American international relations scholar, and critic of the George W Bush administration, Stephen Zunes says the following: " Nearly twenty years ago, I wrote an op-ed in USA Today in which I argued that sending U.S ground forces into Afghanistan would result in "an unwinnable counter-insurgency war in a hostile terrain against a people with a long history of resisting outsiders." It is indeed the graveyard of empires.

Zunes specializes in Middle Eastern politics, U.S. foreign policy, and strategic nonviolent action.

 

[MrSki]

Not looking good.

 

[Ax^]

 

[Dogsauce]

Sad to see the American ‘left’ (and others) rallying to the flag (Biden) and trying to counter the narrative of this being the utter shitshow it appears as. Not fooled.

 

[Ax^]

its been an uttershit show since the beginning and not sticking up for Biden

who ever was in the whitehouse during this term was going to do the same thing

 

[Johnny Doe]

Not looking good.

What's going on in this? Is it people trying to get out?

 

[Ax^]

trying to get on or bribe any plane with crew to take off is my guess

don't think any will be leaving tonight