A third of male university students say they would rape a woman if there no were no consequences
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trabuquera
Modesty Bag
Mixed feelings on this one.
On one hand it's obviously horrifying - illustrating just how little women's consent matters to what some/many/a third of men conceive of as a good sexual experience (for a man.) If I weren't already a dyed in the wool and very cynical feminist, the idea that up to a third of the men I meet might consider rape an option would be shocking to me. Sadly, if anything, I think it's an underestimate of the % who'd consider it in the fictional conditions the study set up.
How many humans (of any gender) would admit they might consider robbing, burning or murdering if there were no consequences whatsoever? Probably plenty. It's such a completely hypothetical and impossible situation that people's answers about what they'd do in THAT situation don't much resemble what they would ever do in what we fondly imagine to be "the real world". (I think this study also had some condition about "and nobody would find out afterwards", which is also a pretty big factor in young men being willing to contemplate the act of rape.)
US studies on small cohorts of college students are notoriously poor guides to all human psychology and are often bogus (or, at the very least, unambitious and unrigorous and sloppily phrased.) And anything going into a journal called "Violence and Gender" might just possibly be taking some basic premises for granted without interrogating them first.
tl;dr version: small sloppy study might or might not be anything to be alarmed about.
On one hand it's obviously horrifying - illustrating just how little women's consent matters to what some/many/a third of men conceive of as a good sexual experience (for a man.) If I weren't already a dyed in the wool and very cynical feminist, the idea that up to a third of the men I meet might consider rape an option would be shocking to me. Sadly, if anything, I think it's an underestimate of the % who'd consider it in the fictional conditions the study set up.
How many humans (of any gender) would admit they might consider robbing, burning or murdering if there were no consequences whatsoever? Probably plenty. It's such a completely hypothetical and impossible situation that people's answers about what they'd do in THAT situation don't much resemble what they would ever do in what we fondly imagine to be "the real world". (I think this study also had some condition about "and nobody would find out afterwards", which is also a pretty big factor in young men being willing to contemplate the act of rape.)
US studies on small cohorts of college students are notoriously poor guides to all human psychology and are often bogus (or, at the very least, unambitious and unrigorous and sloppily phrased.) And anything going into a journal called "Violence and Gender" might just possibly be taking some basic premises for granted without interrogating them first.
tl;dr version: small sloppy study might or might not be anything to be alarmed about.
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el-ahrairah
forward communism, forward gerbils!
there are no consequences really. at least, the statistical odds of getting reported are super low, and even if you do it's a pain in the arse but you'll almost certainly not be prosecuted and even if you are the overwhelming majority get off. so really, rape is only nominally a crime and you might as well get in there. unless you have some weird idea that women are people, or some gay shit like that.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i don't think you'd have to look hard to find 29 twats on a uni campus
SaskiaJayne
Rural Guerrilla
I guess there is more rape in countries where rapists get away with their crimes? Which would suggest that the only reason some men in any country do not commit acts of rape is because they fear the consequences of their actions should they do so.
Thimble Queen
Called away to another place
So many women I know have had some kind of coercive sexual experience. Pretty sure only know one that has reported it to the police. So basically yeah what el-ahrairah said they already get away with it.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I share some of trabuquera's reservations. Would have been interested to hear from someone like ymu about the statistical analysis bit, as my first look at it leaves me a little worried by their lack of concern for the small sample size and that they may be drawing more conclusions from the results than are warranted. I'm also concerned by this: "Eighty-six male college students received extra credit for their participation." A small, rather self-selecting group, and how was the thing advertising it worded?
It also says this:
I'd be interested to hear from a follow-up what effect such a debriefing might have had on their answers. How many had thought about this properly?
It also says this:
I'd be interested to hear from a follow-up what effect such a debriefing might have had on their answers. How many had thought about this properly?
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wobbly
because there's a lot of people who believe consent is a lack of resistance, that if they coerce consent that is actual consent.
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wobbly
there's also the reference in the abstract, i'm skimming through this atm, to indicate that men who endorse coercive behaviors to obtain consent (that are rape) but deny they would ever be an actual rapist are more likely to exhibit benevolent sexism.
looks like another bit of evidence to suggest that men who think they should play the chivalrous character believe women owe them something for that and are prepared to force an appearence of consent to get that.
looks like another bit of evidence to suggest that men who think they should play the chivalrous character believe women owe them something for that and are prepared to force an appearence of consent to get that.
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wobbly
I'm not. because these figures tend to correlate with other similar studies that I've come across. there's a significant percentage of men who will rape by creating a situation where their victim can't say no and believe that her lack of activ resistance makes it not-rape. it also correlates with the anecdotes i've heard. a lot of women do discuss someone trying it on when they were unable to say no, when they were drunk, asleep etc. and genuinely believed they were entitled to do so.
i'd also say that a study that is linked t what they describe as 'extensive debriefing' will of necessity involve smaller numbers of participants, those debriefings wer probably conducted individually and would need to be done by someone with the training to do so. 86 is not a bad number for a study involving long individual interviews. it's not dissimilar to numbers in other similar studies. larger than some
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wobbly
while there may be somethign wrong with the reporting of this study in some sources, that dosne't mean there's anything actually wrong with the study. it means people are trying to read things into it.
that isn't an unusual number of participants for a study of this kind. it isn't a major proof in and of itself, but it correlates with figures from other studies, adding support to an overall picture. I don't do stuff like this study, but I have been designing a Phd where the data will be significantly gathered from interviews and 20-40 subjects is enough to get me valid results. and for an exploratory study to test out some ideas, something this article is bizarrely trying to claim makes it worthless, it's an entirely reasonable number that shows there's some men with some frankly shocking attitudes out there and that correlates to a sence of entitlement from being a 'nice bloke'.
and the idea that there are quite a significant number of men who are prepared to consider themselves not rapists as long as consent was coerced/forced isn't exactly news. how often do we hear that date-rape isn't rape-rape, that it's not an actual rape unless it's a violent attack by a stranger.
the sexual assault figures - studies determining frequency of sexual assault can be squewed by how you define sexual assault. and whether women are being taught not to consider minor every day stuff as actual sexual assault. to not make a fuss. to underreport rape because they are also taught that coerced consent is consent. they may believe it wasn't an actual attack unless they were hurt.
and no, the existance of some men who say they will rape isn't proof that some men didn't take the survey seriously. lets not write off the idea that some men consider it acceptable to rape. is it that shocking that some men consider rape acceptable behavior? are we ignoring the existance of rapists and rape victims here? but what we also need to consider is that we're talking about US college age males, who are encouraged to behave immaturely and display hypermasculinity. these figures will be higher in that cohort than in men who have grown out of or who aren't being taught to be fucking entitled arseholes.
it would be nice if we could believe that this paper is something agenda driven, based on mythology, not reality. cause that would mean there's a lot less arseholes out there. a lot of people wouold rather believ there's fewer rapists and fewer victims. that rapists are that identifiable nasty type and rape victim are all risk taking slags. but we don't fix the problems in society by hiding from them, by pretending they aren't there, buy being dismissive towards any work that highlights how prevalent they can be in places where that macho culture flourishes
that isn't an unusual number of participants for a study of this kind. it isn't a major proof in and of itself, but it correlates with figures from other studies, adding support to an overall picture. I don't do stuff like this study, but I have been designing a Phd where the data will be significantly gathered from interviews and 20-40 subjects is enough to get me valid results. and for an exploratory study to test out some ideas, something this article is bizarrely trying to claim makes it worthless, it's an entirely reasonable number that shows there's some men with some frankly shocking attitudes out there and that correlates to a sence of entitlement from being a 'nice bloke'.
and the idea that there are quite a significant number of men who are prepared to consider themselves not rapists as long as consent was coerced/forced isn't exactly news. how often do we hear that date-rape isn't rape-rape, that it's not an actual rape unless it's a violent attack by a stranger.
the sexual assault figures - studies determining frequency of sexual assault can be squewed by how you define sexual assault. and whether women are being taught not to consider minor every day stuff as actual sexual assault. to not make a fuss. to underreport rape because they are also taught that coerced consent is consent. they may believe it wasn't an actual attack unless they were hurt.
and no, the existance of some men who say they will rape isn't proof that some men didn't take the survey seriously. lets not write off the idea that some men consider it acceptable to rape. is it that shocking that some men consider rape acceptable behavior? are we ignoring the existance of rapists and rape victims here? but what we also need to consider is that we're talking about US college age males, who are encouraged to behave immaturely and display hypermasculinity. these figures will be higher in that cohort than in men who have grown out of or who aren't being taught to be fucking entitled arseholes.
it would be nice if we could believe that this paper is something agenda driven, based on mythology, not reality. cause that would mean there's a lot less arseholes out there. a lot of people wouold rather believ there's fewer rapists and fewer victims. that rapists are that identifiable nasty type and rape victim are all risk taking slags. but we don't fix the problems in society by hiding from them, by pretending they aren't there, buy being dismissive towards any work that highlights how prevalent they can be in places where that macho culture flourishes
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wobbly
which I'd suspect is going to appear in a subsequent paper.
or is going to form the basis of another study.
how does anti-rape education affect attitudes towards the acceptability of rape?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I don't totally disagree with everything she says there, and share concerns about the study. But a quick look at her article history shows her to be a conservative with something of an agenda to push.
The US would appear to be very polarised on this issue.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
That bit wasn't intended as a criticism, btw. I'd be genuinely interested to know, and can't really guess what the answer would be.
Most of that criticism strikes me as bullshit with an agenda. Sample size for example -- strikes me as a perfectly reasonable study size that will grant some statistical credibility.
The only criticism I agree with is that 100% assuredly consequence-free assault is such a strange theoretical construct that I'm not sure that asking about it throws much illumination on the real world. Saying no one will ever find out and no trouble will ever come of it raises the question of what the hell kind of action and circumstance you can possibly be talking about. It's hard to relate it to actual violence (implied or otherwise). At the very least it's qualitatively different to real-world situations. So that does make me wonder how much can be read into statistics about it.
The only criticism I agree with is that 100% assuredly consequence-free assault is such a strange theoretical construct that I'm not sure that asking about it throws much illumination on the real world. Saying no one will ever find out and no trouble will ever come of it raises the question of what the hell kind of action and circumstance you can possibly be talking about. It's hard to relate it to actual violence (implied or otherwise). At the very least it's qualitatively different to real-world situations. So that does make me wonder how much can be read into statistics about it.
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wobbly
there's also a lot going on out there atm with regards to rape on campuses. with what to us is utterly bizarre situations where crimes as serious as rape are dealt with in house by the university and not handed over to police. if you google, you will find some utterly horrific cases where women were hounded out of the college for failure to get good grades as a direct result of being raped, so the student who raped them wouldn't have to face their in house complaints that can give a fine or demand the perpetrator appologises - for rape. and that's supposed to be an end to the problem.
http://thinkprogress.org/health/2015/01/13/3610865/title-ix-investigations/
title ix is a prohibition of sex discrimination in education under federal law, so a complaint prompts a federal investigation of the handing of rape complaints on that campus, thereby bypassing the university's attempts to hush things up and pretend things like that don't happen there; they make life less safe for women students by pretending it's all perfect. All i wanted to do was use this article to show the current scale of the problem.
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wobbly
as i think was said earlier, ti's a construct not entirely dissimilar to reality. most victims don't report. most of those who do don't see any action taken. the number of universities under investigation in the link above (and a fair bit of extra reading i've done on this ) says th situation on US campuses is about as close to having a right to commit consequence free rapes as you can get, without officially declaring it to no longer be a crime.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Even allowing for all that (and I really don't want to diminish how fucked up the real-life situation is), I think it's still a jump to a magic situation with guaranteed lack of consequences. Unless you then murdered her, the woman you raped would know. That's a consequence right there. These are clearly leading questions, not that I'm saying it's ok to allow yourself to be led by them but it does strike me as a study designed to maximise a particular response.
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
I thought that. If there are no consequences, then how is it rape? It's not a real life situation at all. It's fantasty. If you could murder someone with no consequences, would you do it? I reckon more than 30% of people would say yes.
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wobbly
i don't think the people who think ti's ok to drug or coerce women into consenting to unwanted sex care what women do or don't know in any way other than when it's a barrier to what they want. they are already taught that women who report rape aren't believed.
What constitutes an invalid result and why?
But, wait a second, it's not just about the size of the sample - population or spread is vital too. This seems to have been a very small and very narrow survey. That should be recognised.
Not that I'm saying that the conclusions are wrong btw.
When I went to uni over a decade ago there was stuff that was undoubtedly misogynistic but I think a new culture has emerged in the last few years which is a bit different, charged up by social media - unilad etc... That's troubling for sure.
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wobbly
i'd either have valid results or not have them. valid in these circumstances being something that with other evidence could provide sufficient evidence from which to draw supportable conclusions. no such thing as an invalid result, just a failed project.
fredfelt
Mostly unknown member
Exactly, something without consequence is insignificant, irrelevant or not even a thing. The question framed this way doesn't make sense.
i'd either have valid results or not have them. valid in these circumstances being something that with other evidence could provide sufficient evidence from which to draw supportable conclusions. no such thing as an invalid result, just a failed project.
That makes no sense.
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wobbly
finally got to stop being distracted long enough to actually concentrate on the paper.
the important bit is that men who display high levels of 'benevolent sexism'/chauvinism/massively set ideas on gender roles are the men who are most likely to be in denial that they are rapists. because coerced/bullied/intoxicated consent is not actually getting someone to having sex when they don't really want to, ti's just overcoming a woman's natural aversion to sex because gender roles tell her she is supposed to be chased and he is supposed to be chaser.
this is somthing that's been talked about for a while now, that men who behave 'nicely' towards women can believe that entitles them to access to her body. it certainly correlates to a significant number of the sorties I've heard about date/aquaintance rape.
the important bit is that men who display high levels of 'benevolent sexism'/chauvinism/massively set ideas on gender roles are the men who are most likely to be in denial that they are rapists. because coerced/bullied/intoxicated consent is not actually getting someone to having sex when they don't really want to, ti's just overcoming a woman's natural aversion to sex because gender roles tell her she is supposed to be chased and he is supposed to be chaser.
this is somthing that's been talked about for a while now, that men who behave 'nicely' towards women can believe that entitles them to access to her body. it certainly correlates to a significant number of the sorties I've heard about date/aquaintance rape.
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wobbly
it makes perfect sense to me.
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