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90% of all big fish have been taken from the oceans

COVID 19 has alerted the world to the horrors of not being able to breathe and dying slowly by being starved off oxygen. Imagine the sensation of drowning. Imagine not being able to fucking breathe. Gasping, struggling, while your whole body shuts down. That's the sensation that fish experience when they're dragged out the ocean. Don't be the cunt that pays for other creatures to die in agony for your trivial palate preferences.
 
imagine the suffering plants go through, as people pluck their leaves or fruit - or rip them untimely up from the soil. you wouldn't like to be hewn in two or to have bits ripped off you so don't be the cunt that pays for other beings unable to speak or wander to live in fear or die in agony just to give you a full belly
 
imagine the suffering plants go through, as people pluck their leaves or fruit - or rip them untimely up from the soil. you wouldn't like to be hewn in two or to have bits ripped off you so don't be the cunt that pays for other beings unable to speak or wander to live in fear or die in agony just to give you a full belly
What about a mushroom? Kept in dark, damp conditions all your life them some cunt comes along and sautés you.
 
He's finally gone full wibble.

Fuck off, Jeff.
to be fair, dying as fish do is bound to be nasty, brutish and hopefully short. but nature's famously in tooth and nail, lots of fish get scoffed by other fish or marine animals and the fish will have eaten plankton etc while alive. the greater issue isn't that nasty humans catch fish but that nasty humans catch far too many fish too often - hence the damage done to stocks. and nasty humans fuck up the marine environment with noise and other pollution, harming animals many of us like, whales and so on. but if the recent news about human reproductive health is borne out by developments in the medium term (ie people finding it very hard to have kids by the mid 2040s) then those fish and so on who manage survive till then may find their progeny rather safer
 
imagine the suffering plants go through, as people pluck their leaves or fruit - or rip them untimely up from the soil. you wouldn't like to be hewn in two or to have bits ripped off you so don't be the cunt that pays for other beings unable to speak or wander to live in fear or die in agony just to give you a full belly

Do you think that’s a good retort?
 
COVID 19 has alerted the world to the horrors of not being able to breathe and dying slowly by being starved off oxygen. Imagine the sensation of drowning. Imagine not being able to fucking breathe. Gasping, struggling, while your whole body shuts down. That's the sensation that fish experience when they're dragged out the ocean. Don't be the cunt that pays for other creatures to die in agony for your trivial palate preferences.
There's fuck all trivial about my palate preferences. I only eat the best of dead animals.
 
imagine the suffering plants go through, as people pluck their leaves or fruit - or rip them untimely up from the soil. you wouldn't like to be hewn in two or to have bits ripped off you so don't be the cunt that pays for other beings unable to speak or wander to live in fear or die in agony just to give you a full belly
You're better than this, you don't have to sink to the low levels of others
 
Anyone watch Seaspiracy on Netflix? Pretty dark stuff. Loads of things in there which I was aware of regarding over fishing, but it really hammers the point home, but also how the majority of plastic waste in the oceans is actually from the fishing industry, why there is no focus on this, human slavery on board fishing boats, how fucked up fish farms are and how the labels on sustainable fish are pretty much worthless.

It's really worth a watch, even though I see from a google this morning there has been some kick back against it.
 
I dont subscribe to the Telegraph funnily enough. I read the rebuttals in the Guardian, but they seemed rather short of information about why it wasn't true.

That's because it's The Guardian :D

Here you go.

Seaspiracy fact vs fiction: The truth behind Netflix's controversial new documentary


The ocean will be empty of fish by 2048

Perhaps the most controversial of the claims in the documentary, this number stems from a 2006 paper, from which the lead author, Boris Worm, later distanced himself.
A follow up paper in 2009, which was co-authored by Mr Worm, found that in some areas there had been reduced rates of fishing, leading to some stock recovery, particularly in the US, Iceland and New Zealand.
“When you actually looked at the data it was based on, it was based on a massive extrapolation into the future,” said Bryce Stewart, a marine ecologist at the University of York.
“To see it appear in that film again was a real surprise, because it's a statistic that was questionable to begin with.”
The 2006 study used catch levels to work out what was happening to overall stocks of fish. However, that gives an inaccurate picture, said Ray Hilborn, a marine biologist at the University of Washington, who co-led the 2009 study.
“Catch is a very poor index of the abundance of fish. In many cases, catches are declining because we're regulating fisheries more intensely,” he said.
“We looked at trends in abundance and came to a very different conclusion. The abundance of fish in the half of the world that's well managed – it's increasing not declining.”
[IMG alt="53129780 / f9af9dc0-427c-34c9-8911-e6f840ca45fb
Original description: film title: Seaspiracy, 2021 Netflix, Seaspiracy examines the global fishing industry, challenging notions of sustainable fishing and showing how human actions cause widespread environmental destruction., handout, ... Ali Tabrizi (Filmmaker and avid ocean-lover) in Seaspiracy. c. Lucy Tabrizi
Credit: Lucy Tabrizi
Source: Lucy Tabrizi"]https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content...hwqI4xnUdPZrRVJrlRATOw.jpeg?imwidth=480[/IMG]
Ali Tabrizi, a Kent-based filmmaker, is behind the controversial new documentary about the global fishing industry, as he set out to expose the damage being done to fish populations Credit: Lucy Tabrizi
It is not possible to have sustainable levels of fishing
One of the core messages of the film is that there is no level of sustainable fishing.
Part of the answer to this depends on your definition of sustainable. The internationally recognised definition takes sustainable to mean that if you kept fishing at the same levels, overall stock levels will not drastically drop.
The UN’s Food and Agriculture Organisation estimates that 34.2 per cent of stocks worldwide are fished to unsustainable levels. The majority are fished at “maximum capacity”, meaning that higher levels would deplete the overall stock.
However, that doesn’t mean that sustainable by this definition is necessarily optimal. Reducing fishing can give some populations time to bounce back to even higher levels, with greater benefits.
There’s also a lot unknown about fish stock levels, because the nature of sealife makes data collection difficult.
“The documentary does a good job of skewering ‘sustainable fishing’,” said Charles Clover, the co-founder of the Blue Marine Foundation.
Arguments about the definition of sustainability aside, marine conservationists argue that it’s not true that there can be no fishing at optimal levels.
[IMG alt="53129786 / 3fc75157-a33d-3b74-977c-a6a11888599a
Original description: film title: Seaspiracy, 2021 Netflix, Seaspiracy examines the global fishing industry, challenging notions of sustainable fishing and showing how human actions cause widespread environmental destruction., handout, ... Seaspiracy. c. Courtesy of Netflix © 2021
Credit: Netflix
Source: ©2021 Netflix, Inc.
Filename: TELEMMGLPICT000253129786.jpeg"]https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content...KrX4W6vgDBOEP_fulz8uF4.jpeg?imwidth=480[/IMG]
Seaspiracy examines the global fishing industry, challenging notions of sustainable fishing (a sustainable farm is seen here) and showing how human actions cause widespread environmental destruction
“There are examples of people fishing responsibly, and for the benefit of coastal communities,” said Mr Clover. “Saying that all fishing is irresponsible is just crass.”
We should stop eating fish
Given problems with certification, sustainability and slavery, the film concludes that the best thing to do is essentially eliminate seafood from your diet.
The film’s producer, Kip Andersen, is a prominent vegan who made the earlier documentary Cowspiracy, and has set up a vegan meal planning subscription service that is linked from the Seaspiracy website.
However, critics and even the filmmaker, Ali Tabrizi, agree that expecting the world to stop eating fish is unrealistic, especially in places and cultures that depend on fish for food and jobs.
Whether those who have an easier choice to give up fish, such as in the UK, should do it, is open to argument.
Critics of the film argue that it is an overly simplistic message, which risks leaving management of the oceans to disengaged consumers and corporations who care about it the least.
“We need to get food from somewhere,” said Mr Stewart. “Fishing has quite a low environmental impact compared to many other production sources.”
Being more selective about what you eat is “a perfectly legitimate” message, Mr Hilborn said.
But he acknowledges it can be almost impossible for consumers to make fully informed decisions about the fish they eat. “It's all subjective about what you think is important. So, I certainly agree it's confusing for consumers." he added.
“This is going to put people off the thought that you can do anything about saving the world by taking responsible actions and there's actually a lot of responsible actions you can take,” said Mr Clover.
No certification can give consumers peace of mind
The documentary casts doubt over the credibility of certification from the Marine Stewardship Council (MSC) and of Dolphin Safe tuna. MSC declined to take part in the documentary, but said its certification process was independent and rigorous.
The International Marine Mammal Project (IMMP), which runs the dolphin safe tuna programme, said it had overseen the reduction of dolphin-kill levels by “more than 95 per cent, preventing the indiscriminate slaughter of more than 100,000 dolphins every year.”
Some marine experts are highly critical of the MSC, by far the most common certification body and say no eco-label can provide 100 per cent assurance.
“The MSC has managed to write an enormously complicated standard that excludes lots of really bad things that fisheries do,” said Mr Clover.
A 2012 study in the journal Marine Policy found that 31 per cent of MSC certified fisheries were found to be targeting overfished stocks. But it said “it is still reasonable to buy certified seafood”, because they were not as bad as non-certified.
“The percentage of moderately exploited, healthy stocks is three to four times higher in certified than in non-certified seafood," the study found.
George Clark, MSC programme director for the UK and Ireland, said: "Fisheries that are certified to the MSC's standard for sustainable seafood, including Cornish sardines and hake, cockles in the Thames Estuary and Scottish haddock and mussels, are taking part in a programme globally recognised as world-leading.
"Credit should be given to those fishermen for being at the forefront of sustainability, rather than trying to undermine the reforms they are delivering. The MSC requirements are rigorous, science-based and are helping protect oceans from overfishing."
Slavery is rife in the fishing trade
Human rights abuses, including forced labour, are well-documented within the industry, and are linked to overfishing, illegal fishing and global demand for cheap fish.
Many of the worst violations that have been documented occurred in east Asian waters, with much of the produce caught during this trade ending up in Western supermarkets.
A 2014 investigation in The Guardian found prawns sold in Tesco, Aldi and other supermarkets linked to trafficking, slavery and extreme violence in fishing boats off the coast of Thailand.
But the issue has also been found among African and Asian crew on domestic vessels in British and Irish fisheries, as well as in the waters of Indonesia, Papua New Guinea, Russia and South Africa, and New Zealand.
Online databases such as the Seafood Slavery Risk Tool and the Global Slavery Index can give consumers information about which countries of origin are at particularly high risk for the use of forced labour.
Discarded fishing nets are a much greater threat to marine life than plastic straws
The film compares campaigns against plastic straws, a tiny fraction of the waste in the ocean, to trying to save the rainforest by banning toothpicks. A fair point, said Mr Hilborn. “Plastic straws are a totally bogus issue."
But, some experts have taken issue with the suggestion in the film that fishing waste, rather than rubbish from the land, is by far the biggest plastics problem in our waters.
It is true that 46 per cent of the Great Pacific Garbage Patch was found to be fishing nets, as the documentary claims
But, say scientists, that overlooks the fact that plastics used on land tend to accumulate in other places first, such as rivers and coasts, before breaking down into microplastics, which are more likely to sink.
Furthermore, said Mr Hilborn, focusing too much on plastics overlooks that the greatest danger to ocean health is climate change.
“Oceans produce oxygen, they sequester carbon, and they produce food, and I haven't seen any evidence that plastics have any impact on any of those,” he said.
 
I think that misrepresents it. Obviously I'm not an expert, but I didn't take all of that from it. It doesn't say (to me) that there is no sustainable methods of fishing, it says in the current form it isn't. In fact it talks about the impact of commercial fishing in areas which were fished traditionally where they now struggle to do so. It also specifically talks about Thailand regarding slavery, the article actually points out it's worse then that, but then who actually goes into the supermarket and checks that data? The point about fishing net waste is not that the other plastic is irrelevant, but the fact it's hardly talked about. Given it's almost two hours long, if that's the best they can come up with, I still recommend it as worth a watch.
 
I thought seacpiricy was.fucking great.



Cut straight though the bs of NGO, the inexsistence of 'sustainability'.

Colonial style piracy and theft of livestock of African waters.

Gang-pressing slavery alive and well in the 21st century.

The gore and viscera in the Faroé island.

The fucking cess-pits in sealochs.

I was ranting to people about it for 2 days
 
It doesn't, and that's acknowledged in the piece I linked to. It does however pour cold water on some of the claims made and approaches the issue in a far more scientifically balanced and less psychotic manner than the documentary and some on here.

It's clearly polemical and is 'vegan propaganda' on some level, and some of the facts are dubious, as are some of the broad suggestions for what to do. But despite that it's possible to see where the general trajectory for the seas and oceans is going, and it's not good at all. As for what it says to do about it, for example the idea that small coastal communities in Indonesia (to pick one area randomly...) should stop catching and eating fish is ridiculous, but the argument that me, living in a city in the UK and currently buying farmed salmon, should stop is much stronger. (Generally consumption is the wrong end of the production process to attack, but still...).

Also that Telegraph piece actually is much less critical than it might seem, it does broadly agree with much of what the film says.

Fuck ranting at people about it though Superdupastupor I think that makes you seem bonkers and annoying, and makes people do the opposite generally.
 
I don’t like fish so I haven’t eaten it since I was about seven in the early 1970s. Just wanted to share. Does that make me a better person than I thought I was?
 
I don’t like fish so I haven’t eaten it since I was about seven in the early 1970s. Just wanted to share. Does that make me a better person than I thought I was?

Around a third of the world's fish catch is used to feed pigs, chickens etc. so if you eat those animals but don't eat fish you're not blameless in the destruction of the oceans, but you might be a little higher up the food chain.
 
It's clearly polemical and is 'vegan propaganda' on some level, and some of the facts are dubious, as are some of the broad suggestions for what to do. But despite that it's possible to see where the general trajectory for the seas and oceans is going, and it's not good at all. As for what it says to do about it, for example the idea that small coastal communities in Indonesia (to pick one area randomly...) should stop catching and eating fish is ridiculous, but the argument that me, living in a city in the UK and currently buying farmed salmon, should stop is much stronger. (Generally consumption is the wrong end of the production process to attack, but still...).

Also that Telegraph piece actually is much less critical than it might seem, it does broadly agree with much of what the film says.

Fuck ranting at people about it though Superdupastupor I think that makes you seem bonkers and annoying, and makes people do the opposite generally.
The main problem is that once you've unpicked the mendacity of the presentation of the material and identified the motivation, the rest completely loses credibility unless you got far out of your way to defend it. Over-fishing is a problem in places but nothing like the problem the film pretends and stocks are recovering in others. Anyone coming away from that saying "I'm not going to eat fish anymore" has been duped.

Agree with you that The Telegraph piece is well balanced.
 
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Fuck ranting at people about it though Superdupastupor I think that makes you seem bonkers and annoying, and makes people do the opposite generally.


Yeh I know, that was and acknowledgement that I'm not a great at rhetoric, more of hand-wavey incoherente person

The docu put a lot of important points in a row, and succeed in many ways that others haven't.

As for coming across bonkers and annoying, that ship hás sailed. (Not a trawlller)
 
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