7/7 Home Office 'narrative' leaked: Iraq led to July 7

[detective-boy]

Did you read the George Nelson link?

Yes. He does NOT say that no trace of an aircraft was found at the sites. He says that the government haven't released any details of anything that WAS found.

IF scene examiners said that they had found no trace of an aircraft that would worry me. As an investigator I would need to be convinced of why / how that should be. BUT, before reaching that point I would need to know that nothing had been found. We do not know that.

You are entitled to ask the government for more information. You are entitled to consider what is there. Your mistake is to confuse a failure to release information (for whatever reason) with a FACT that there is nothing to release.

It only takes one impossibility to rule out a theory; a proper explanation for the collapse of WTC7 is required. If it could not have come down as is suggested then one must reject the official theory.

Precisely. "If".

They are collapsed from the bottom as you well know. That doesn't mean they need be.

So it was a controlled demolition ... but not like any controlled demolition we have seen before? And anyway, my point was mainly that you claim it was a controlled demolition starting from the top which ... er ... required early explosions at the bottom as part of that process. Right.

Two planes? Can you identify the north tower impact as a 767? I certainly can't.

Wasn't there, so I don't know. But it seems that a lot of people thought it was a large plane of some sort. And we'll just stick to one if that makes you feel better. You said it would be "too hard to produce a 757 and crash it into the Pentagon without it being well tracked and shot down" to which my response now reads "Er .. like it was too hard to find at least one plane which hit the WTC then?

Others don't think it does square though, such as William Rodriguez who was there.

Top source. Janitor wasn't he? Clearly a man whose opinion of such matters is totally and utterly reliable...

 

[Badger Kitten]

Bus Bomber's family 'devastated'


"We, the family of Hasib Mir Hussain, are devastated over the events of the past few days," they said in Friday's statement.

"

We are having difficulty taking this in.

"Our thoughts are with all the bereaved families and we have to live ourselves with the loss of our son in these difficult circumstances.

"We had no knowledge of his activities and, had we done we would have done everything in our power to stop him.

"We urge anyone with information about these events, or leading up to them, to co-operate fully with the authorities.

"This is a difficult time and we ask you to let us grieve for our son in private."

 

[Prole]

BK said: But I will say this, who asked you to undertake all this 'research'? Who benefits, to use the phraseology you spout? You do. You seem to get a ghoulish thrill out of your hobby. I find your hobby, and you, distasteful, but I would never have got involved with defending myself against you fruitbats if you hadn't come bothering me on my blog. You're fucking obsessed. And why?

For evil to triumph it only takes for good people to say and do nothing.

Not a hobby BK an absolute necessity to ask how what why and whom methinks.

No thrill, it's time consuming distessing and hard work.

You found the Antagonist first methinks and chased him onto the Alex Cox forum.

We just need to ask questions and demand answers before we no longer recognise the society in which some of us struggle to raise children.

I have said before we are moving towards an increasingly totalitarian state, even a fascist state, as in corporatism+ the state = fascism.

 

[Badger Kitten]

Right, Prole, that is all 4 families accepting the bombers complicity and expressing their sorrow.

There's your digs at me sourced and up on the boards for all to see.

meanwhile, your total lack of an alternative to the version that has been multi-sourced and reported ( note: there is no official version and will be none until the 'narrative')

So...either you are a delusional perma-questioning but unable-to vioce-alternatives- fruitloop who has made a huge conspiracy out of the fact that the 4 got an earlier train to that originally reported, has gone on to hang about with a group that contains anti-semites, holocaust-deniers, people who attempt to hijack book launches, who herself makes personal attacks and nasty insinuations on a survivors blogs and on messageboards...

...or, I, the police, the media, the families of the bombers, the London Underground and ambulance and fireservice staff involved, are all liars or shills or deluded.


Self-awareness is difficult for those suffering from personality disorders so I quite understand why you won't be able to respond to this point.

If I get pissed off with you, Prole, perhaps I have a reason to, after all I have been through, but what your bloody excuse for all this is I really do not know.

Get help, for heaven's sake.

 

[detective-boy]

... but I think the majority of Americans believed that Saddam was behind the events of 9/11.

Some may suggest that is more the result of the stupendous ignorance of Americans of anything outside their own borders rather than the result of any particularly effective propoganda ...

 

[editor]

For evil to triumph it only takes for good people to say and do nothing.

Are you ever going to answer my questions or is this empty, vacuous sloganeering as good as it's going to get?

The families of the bombers are in no doubt that their sons were responsible.

So who the fuck are you to say that they're lying?

And where - for the last chuffing time - is your alternative theory supported by credible evidence?

 

[Badger Kitten]

<deafening silence from Mrs Trainspotter>

 

[detective-boy]

By the time I'd finished getting the records of the companies with common directors, I had a shoebox full of microfiche (say 30,000 paper pages) of utterly worthless information. That was paranoid research - just follow the links you come across, forget about the reality they are embedded in. I haven't done it since.

It's about lesson number 3 for professional investigators:

- Set clear parameters for your enquiry. Apply those parameters ruthlessly. If something crops up which appears worthy of further investigation outside those parameters, start a new investigation, refer to it another investigator or defer it until later. Otherwise your enquiry will rapidly be overwhelmed with information and will grind to a halt.

 

[detective-boy]

Anyone here care to answer? Or is it just unimportant that 9 months after these events, basic verifiable facts that prove conclusively the guilt of these men are proving to be false or absent.

Please refer me to:

1. The police or other official account which states that they conclude that the suspects travelled on a particular train
2. The official records which prove that a particular train travelled from Luton and arraived at Kings Cross at a particular time (not timetable information - actual reliable information about what happened on the day)

Because I have never seen this. And in the absence of it you cannot prove as a fact which train they did or did not travel upon. And you cannot use that as the basis for any argument that it was or was not possible.

If the information is not in the public domain then it is only possible to use it as the basis for asking for it. Anything else is speculation NOT FACT.

 

[laptop]

In response to the suggestion that she'd gone to the launch meeting for Milan Rai's book without having read it:

I had read it.
...
I read the whole book.

15-04-2006, 01:51 AM

I have just read Milan Rai's book '7/7 the London bombings & the Iraq War', a book that states they caught the 7.48 from Luton. I went to the book launch, at which Maya Evans chaired and BK spoke.

My emphasis. The meeting was on 12-04-2006, 7:00 PM - 9:00 PM.

For one who makes so much of timings to claim that two-and-a-bit days ago qualifies as "just" would be absurd. You are therefore either so inconsistent that it would be foolish to listen to anything you say, or a liar, in which case it would be...

& I gather Jazz wants me to produce a catalogue of all reports critical of the WMD claims

 

[detective-boy]

Or maybe I just question the inconsistencies and ask why there are so many.

If you did you may find that more people actually listen to what you have to say. It's when you include speculation about other explanations that you lose people (and entirely undermine any chance you had of convincing the public at large or the authorities to release more of the evidence they undoubedly have).

Scenario 1:

"Truth-Seeker": "Excuse me. There appears to be a bit of an inconsistency here. This means that the whole thing is obviously an inside job and there is a massive conspiracy to hide the truth. Reveal yourselves immediately"

"Official": "Fuck off. Nutter!"

Scenario 2:

"Truth-Seeker": "Excuse me. There appears to be a bit of an inconsistency here. I'm sure you have (e.g.) CCTV from the relevant train or detailed information from the rail network control system which would clarify that apparent inconsistency. Could you release that please"

"Official": (a) "Yes, here it is" or (b) "We haven't got anything" or (c) "No, I'm sorry, we have got that information but I can't release it at the moment because ..."

Any of which would enable you to take your reasoning and / or request on to the next level.

 

[editor]

It's when you include speculation about other explanations that you lose people (and entirely undermine any chance you had of convincing the public at large or the authorities to release more of the evidence they undoubedly have).

Trouble is that this particular 'truth seeker' has already made her mind up. Tight.

That's why she leaps to wild conclusions, can't produce a plausible alternative theory when repeatedly asked and ignores any/all evidence that doesn't fit her predetermined "it's all a cover up I tell ye!" scenario.

 

[Badger Kitten]

<more deafening silence from Mrs Trainspotter>

whom I note is still on the boards. Or perhaps she will have roused herself whilst I post this?

Of course, we're all complicit in peddling the cyber War OF Terror ( TM) Prole
- and with our M15 handlers pulling our strings, what else can we do but mock the one so afflicted as to be self-appointed 'truth-seeker' ( even though her utter lack of credible alternatives, laughable insinuations, point-free obsessing over trivia and wildly-selective cut and pastes makes her something of an unreliable ''researcher'').

I've suggested this before, but perhaps your next project to 'research' could be the Loch Ness Monster: it has not attacked anyone to my knowledge, so you won't be upsetting any survivors or misrepresenting any bereaved families, it has no lawyer to get upset about any insinuations you may make, and I am convinced that the fresh air in Scotland would do you the world of good.

 

[Prole]

laptop said : I have just read Milan Rai's book '7/7 the London bombings & the Iraq War', a book that states they caught the 7.48 from Luton. I went to the book launch, at which Maya Evans chaired and BK spoke.

I bought the book on the Stop the War march on March 18th, I read it, just means over the last couple of weeks, not in the last couple of minutes.

 

[editor]

I bought the book on the Stop the War march on March 18th, I read it, just means over the last couple of weeks, not in the last couple of minutes.

Easy for people to get confused over small details isn't it?

Now, about my questions....

 

[Badger Kitten]

Easy for people to get confused over small details isn't it?

Now, about my questions....

You'll be waiting a long time. She doesn't 'do' answers, only questions.

Questions, smears, insinuations, but answers come there none.

 

[Prole]

ed said; That's why she leaps to wild conclusions, can't produce a plausible alternative theory when repeatedly asked and ignores any/all evidence that doesn't fit her predetermined "it's all a cover up I tell ye!" scenario.

You demand the wild conclusions by constantly hectoring and bullying me to provide an alternative theory. It is for the state to prove their theory, suicide-bombers, not for me to offer alternatives.

BK said:whom I note is still on the boards.

I am not here all the time, Firefox keeps the page open until I close it.

so you won't be upsetting any survivors or misrepresenting any bereaved families

I genuinely do not wish to cause any survivors or families of the bereaved and injured any distress, that is very far for my intention. Truth and justice is something that I would hope benefits us all. If there was a truly comprehensive evidence based narrative of these events then I will happily stop asking the difficult questions.

 

[Badger Kitten]

Prole. If you don't want to cause survivors any distress, can I ask why you post this sort of tripe?

Originally Posted by Prole on the Alex Cox forum
'The very busy Rachel North, or should that be the only voice of the survivors of July 7th?, seems to have had quite a week'

'...Rachel will really have served her purpose for the State. There are advantages to having 'only one voice' of the survivors of July 7th, it can then be the 'voice' that says the things the State wants us all to hear'

Whether Rachel wittingly or un-wittingly co-operates in what is a racist media is her choice.
I for one was appalled ...

Trainspotting, Rachel, or just another inconvenient fact that musn't be allowed to get in the way of a good story?

This is despite you reading my blog where you will find numerous survivor blogs and accounts...

And given that your group's hijacking of the meeting actually meant that other survivors were not able to speak out, how do you feel about that?

And given that 5 survivors inc. the train driver all sat laughing at your stupid theories in the pub afterwards, how do you feel about that?

And given the comments that Mitch and Holly Finch havbe made on the antagonist's blog, a blog where you regularly post and are linked where they express their disgust with conspiracy theories, how do you feel about that?

If you discover zilch, can offer no alternative explanations for the suicide bombs and are clearly pissing off survivors, then why are you still here?

 

[JHE]

It is for the state to prove their theory, suicide-bombers, not for me to offer alternatives.

Yeah, but let's be frank: it was the pixies wot dun it - using magic, explosive pixy dust. The pixies' plot was so cunning that many people have ended up blaming a bunch of innocent Islamonuts who, by sheer coincidence, had travelled to London carrying bombs and, by a further remarkable coincidence, were at the very points where the pixies caused the magic explosions.

 

[Badger Kitten]

Well, the theory has been proved to the satisfaction of everyone apart from conspiracy theorists, Prole.

You see, most people don't assume the police, the news, the survivors, the LU staff, the fire service, the ambulance service, the doctors are all liars or delusional or complicit in an Orwellian conspiracy.

But we await the narrative, and I ask for an independent enquiry to look at the causes of the bombs as well as what happened, so that we may learn lessons and save lives and if necessary, change policies. Foreign policies, mostly. Instead of rushing thorugh draconian civil-liberties-trashing legislation that does little to tackle the cause of the problem.

 

[laptop]

Easy for people to get confused over small details isn't it?

Including who said what

Noted that "give or take a month" is good enough for her...

 

[detective-boy]

Your statement was:

Khan's friends said the video was a fake, it didn't even sound like him.

You were asked:

Source, please.

You supplied:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1561938,00.html

So WHERE in that "source" is there anything which amounts to "Khan's friends" saying it is a fake and does not even sound like him?

So far as I can see:

1. It is all hearsay, so you have no idea of the context or the entirity of the reported comments in any event.
2. Saj says "He never talked of terrorism to me. I just don't accept that he or the others did this." (Note: No mention of tape or it being fake)
3. Saj was one of the few who, on seeing the video, admitted it was evidence of a kind. He said "That is proof I suppose. It just shows you doesn't it?" (Note: He was one of a "few" (no way of knowing how many, or what proportion of the group, that "few" represented). He AGREES the tape is genuine)
4. His friends were less easy to persuade. One (unnamed, and hence unverifiable if anyone even tried) said "It's a fake, look at the way his lips were moving; they looked odd, the whole thing is a fake." (Note: Not that it is not Khan. Just that the words being spoken don't fit with the lip movements)
5. Mohammed Afsal said: "It's crap, I know people can change in a second, but I can't say he is one of them. He taught my son, he was a very good teacher. He was never hardline - no one could say he was an extremist - he was peaceful and dedicated to the children. They all loved him." (Note: No mention of the tape or it being fake. You could argue that the "It's" in "It's crap" referred to the tape but the context strongly suggests that it refers instead to the whole idea that Kham could have turned out to be a bomber. Comments based entirely on a subjective view of Khan)
6. The parents of Khan will "not be happy at all" about the video. (Note: No mention of them believing it is false. Strong implication that they must believe it is genuine and, hence, it adds to the proof that their son was involved)
7. Afzal Choudhry said "It makes it more clear that he perpetrated these acts, it was definitely him, it was his voice and his face, that cannot be denied," (Note: This named source worked with Khan for six months and is quite definite about the identification)
8. Dr Hassan Akertib said "This video will make some see him as a martyr, definitely. We are very concerned. We are trying to reach out to his circle of friends to find out what influence he still holds on them and to try and eradicate it." (Note: No mention that the tape is false. The context of this comment makes it more than likely that it is believed to be genuine)

So WHY do you quote it as a source you fucking idiot?

 

[Badger Kitten]

Fruitbattery. And I am off to the pub.

at silly Prole.

at everyone else.

 

[detective-boy]

BTW khan's family have asked for an independent post-mortem.

This will be the family who you implied just two posts ago had somehow been "disappeared" and were being kept out of circulation then would it.

You are mad. It is the only explanation.

 

[detective-boy]

We just need to ask questions and demand answers ...

And don't you think it might be a good idea to listen to the fucking answers you are given then?

Try listening and thinking rather than just gobbing off.

 

[editor]

I genuinely do not wish to cause any survivors or families of the bereaved and injured any distress, that is very far for my intention.

But you and your gang of pitiful delude-a-loons are going out of their way to do just that.

If you keep on refusing to produce an alternative theory backed by credible evidence, then I fear this forum is not the place for you.

 

[detective-boy]

Get help, for heaven's sake.

Care in the community has a lot to answer for ...

Sometimes I get all misty-eyed remembering those big Victorian hospitals in the countryside, the straitjackets, the "chemical coshes" ...

 

[detective-boy]

For one who makes so much of timings to claim that two-and-a-bit days ago qualifies as "just" would be absurd.

Good work, Watson!!

* Wanders off to look up how to spell "petard" ... *

 

[detective-boy]

If there was a truly comprehensive evidence based narrative of these events then I will happily stop asking the difficult questions.

So why don't you just shut the fuck up and wait and see what is published then? It'll be along in a few weeks which, after all, is "just" a short time as we now know! Moron.

 

[detective-boy]

Fruitbattery. And I am off to the pub.

Don't forget to check the dead letter drop on the way hon!