7/7 Home Office 'narrative' leaked: Iraq led to July 7

[Crispy]

The double talk of "he's got WMDs" was utterly transparent. If there's a way of proving it, I'd willingly bet that that was the opinion of the majority of the population at the time.

I hope

 

[Jazzz]

(to laptop)

I remarked that as a country, we were well taken in by the onslaught of propanganda. Unfortunately this was true (urban75 being an exception), and I've provided plenty of links and quotes to show it. Including ones from your google list. Including one from Noam Chomsky. Including one from Menzies Cambell (Lib Dems were the anti-war party) showing that view was ubiquitous in the House of Commons.

You've come up with absolutely nothing of any substance to say otherwise.

Do your own research, and find a single mainstream piece which describes the whole WMD ruse as the load of crap it was - and that Saddam had nothing. Should be very, very easy for you if things are not as I say. Yet neither you nor anyone has come up with one. Maybe there are one or two, I can't say for sure, but if there were they were very much in the minority.

 

[Jazzz]

on a lighter note...

... as it's bedtime, here's something to lighten the mood a bit.

However much the British public may have been misled, things were far worse over the pond!

Poll Shows Many Americans Believe WMDs Found AND Used

The polls keep getting better. By which I mean, worse. Dumber. Wronger? Something.

Anyway.

War poll uncovers fact gap. According to a recent poll from the Program on International Policy Attitudes at the University of Maryland, a third of US citizens believe US forces have found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Twenty-two percent believe such weapons were actually used by Saddam’s forces during the recent war.

Whoa.

Interesting discussion by the people who conducted the poll, trying to figure out how so many people would believe something that not even the president’s strongest supporters on the WMD thing claim to be true. “Given the intensive news coverage and high levels of public attention, this level of misinformation suggests some Americans may be avoiding having an experience of cognitive dissonance,” said Steve Kull, director of the program. You think?

source

 

[Lock&Light]

NOWHERE, all I get is people repeating their preconceptions at me.

Nobody had any preconceptions of you. All our conceptions, I am convinced, are based on what you have had to say.

 

[Lock&Light]

This is fun!

Be careful, editor. You don't want to sound like Maggie Thatcher did just after she became care-taker PM.

 

[Jazzz]

My final word on what the public thought before the war. It's from a YouGov poll for the Daily Telegraph, conducted after the march with a large sample size, 2357.

While most clearly didn't want war as we know, certainly not as things were, only 9% stated that they thought Saddam didn't have WMDs.

Perhaps even more disturbingly, 56% thought Blair was handling the issue with 'sincerity and courage'

Have a read. It's an interesting flashback. One can easily forget what the mood was. Here's the question in full:

From what you know, do you think Saddam Hussein currently possess [sic] weapons of mass destruction such as chemical and biological weapons?

Yes, does 71%
No, does not 9%
Don't know 21%

A similar poll before a week earlier, before the march, was even worse. Only 4% said he had no chemical or biological weapons and a majority thought he was developing nuclear ones.

Propaganda works. And Tony Blair is still in power.

 

[fela fan]

Well one thing is for certain if they got on a train, then that train left a station at a definite time, and arrived at a definite time. It's what I would call a fact. Facts about 7th July are what I have been researching. Facts are the nearest we can get to establishing whether something happened or didn't happen. Therefore only the truth, the facts, can stand upto rigorous questioning. Facts, such as train times, don't change. They are objective rather than subjective (as in, I was on one of the trains therefore I must know what happened). Sorry to have to spell it out, but I'm tired, and I want to make myself clear.
g'night.

Be careful there prole, facts are sometimes messy things that get in the way of a predetermined line of thinking, sometimes known as self-delusion.

I'm sure you've noticed well how facts can be dismissed by people if they don't want those particular facts.

In fact, if the fact is unwelcome then it ceases to be a fact... really simple!

 

[Jonti]

I can't remember a mainstream media article saying that the WMD ruse was a sack of propaganda, unfortunately.

I remember the Independent was skeptical, and certainly published articles by guys like Robin Cook and Robert Fisk (who had the right take on this all along, and helped some of us keep our heads while all around were losing theirs ...)

Anyone for Kipling ...

I could not dig; I dare not rob;
Therefore I lied to please the mob.
Now all my lies are proved untrue
And I must face the men I slew.
What tale shall serve me here among
Mine young and defrauded young.​

 

[Badger Kitten]

How the hell do I know, I'm not the one saying they were on the train am I?

If July 7th happened as we have been told it happened, simple things like train times & CCTV images should all be verifying the official account.

Why not ask BK why she is promoting a book that is based on a lie?

Only the truth stands up to rigorous questioning.

The book is not based on a lie. The train time may have been muddled and it seems they caught the 7.24 or 7.20 train, something many of the people on your site admit is possible. From one detail - the train time - being possibly incorrect - you extrapolate that the whole thing is a lie and I am a liar. You also look at Kings Cross United and decide 'it is a way of everyone getting their stories straight' - so you call all the survivors liars too?

There is CCTV images of the bombers, and a video message from Khan, yet you call these fake. Here is your group plotting to disturb a book tour by a respected peace activist, without having read the book, so sure are you that it is all a lie. You have repeatedly claimed and insinuated that I am an unpleasant individual, a racist, a liar, disturbed manipulative and concerned with self-aggrandisement and covering up the truth. You also, repeatedly claim that I am ''the only voice of the victims'', which is utter shite - there are 9 7/7 bloggers linked on my blog alone. There are hundreds of survivor statements on all media websites. But once again, you never let the facts get in the way of a good theory, do you?

What a lovely woman you are.

In that meeting on Wednesday, the launch of Lilan Rai's carefully-researched book, (endorsed by Bruce Kent, Tony Benn Ziauddin Sardar, author of What Muslims Believe and Why Do People Hate America?, Revd Canon Prof. Martyn Percy, Principal of Ripon College Cuddesdon, Oxford as well as myself)


were 4 survivors from the Piccadilly suicide bombed train, 3 from carriage one, even closer to the bomb than me, 2 of whom had been seriously injured by the suicide bomb, and one from carriage 6, plus one of the train drivers. Because of the ranting of your group, they did not speak out. After the meeting, we went to the pub and read your laughable pamphlet. We decided to treat it as humourous lunacy rather than the insulting pap it clearly is, because, hey, life's too short to get angry with delusional fruitbats. Since fundementalists like yourself lack all self-awareness, you will doubtless come back and post some more , though happily you know better now than to resort to personal abuse as you have in the past.

Grow up, you silly woman, and get a grip on reality. It is interesting, is it not, that despite all your claims that you do this for truth, and the victims, the only responses I have ever seen by victims to conspiracy theorists such as 'the Antagonist' and yourself is one of anger, dismay, or incredulous laughter. It is clear that your group were planning to hijack the meeting - here you all are, plotting away - and it is a shame that people with more claim than you to be interested in discussion and truthfulness felt unable to contribute because of the way you tried to seize the agenda despite almost nobody in your group having read the book!



I expect you flicked through the book, found it said 7.40am train and decided staright away on the basis of one possible inaccuracy that the whole book was a huge lie, such is your inability to remove the beam from your own eye when looking for motes in others. It is a great shame that you are unable to understand the reality of suicide bombers - even when an Iraqi Muslim professor on the panel told your group that claims that there were no suicide bombers were unhelpful - and wrong.

 

[tarannau]

Here is your group plotting [/URL] to disturb a book tour by a respected peace activist, without having read the book, so sure are you that it is all a lie. You have repeatedly claimed and insinuated that I am an unpleasant individual, a racist, a liar, disturbed manipulative and concerned with self-aggrandisement and covering up the truth.

What a lovely woman you are.
.

Thoase 9/11 boards are pretty unpleasant and delusional all round. Here's an example from one of the most prolific of posters there:

Good work gents, I hope the London crew put this piece of shit straight about things, seems to be 'willfully' ignorant like team rachil.
I beg those in London to hijack this fool's meeting and use it to disseminate what we know.

Yep, so armed with certain knowledge that a train timetable might just have been wrong and a couple of photos they can't really interpret, these people see fit to dismiss the reams of other evidence and insult those actually involved in the events. When Fela Fan talks of facts as 'messy things that get in the way of a predetermined line of thinking, sometimes known as self-delusion' I suspect he means to be dismissive of the official line, yet it's the conspiracocks on that site are a perfect example of a group twisting one or two disputed facts to fit their predetermined world view, hijacking a meeting and protesting about a book that most of them haven't read.

 

[editor]

I remarked that as a country, we were well taken in by the onslaught of propanganda.

Apart from the two million who took part in the biggest demonstration ever seen on UK soil, of course.

 

[jæd]

Thoase 9/11 boards are pretty unpleasant and delusional all round.

For a group trying to seek truth and justice in the face of a global consiparacy, they do post up their real names, email addresses and mobile phone numbers up quite a bit.

 

[Prole]

BK said :You have repeatedly claimed and insinuated that I am an unpleasant individual, a racist, a liar, disturbed manipulative and concerned with self-aggrandisement and covering up the truth

Now that is what I call 'projection'. Go on find me just one quote, I have always treated you with respect, as I do with everyone I engage with, and you know it.
Please stop these smears BK if you have the facts on your side you don't have to use these tactics against me. And by the way the quote was selective, I said 'perhaps you could say KCU was a way of getting the story straight' as a response to something you said.

There is CCTV images of the bombers, and a video message from Khan, yet you call these fake

There is one of the 4 together at Luton, 30 miles from Kings X. Khan's friends said the video was a fake, it didn't even sound like him.

In that meeting on Wednesday, the launch of Lilan Rai's carefully-researched book,

Milan's book contains no independent research into these events and states the 7.48 train time. He tries very hard, against all the odds, to make a connection between the 4 and the war Of terror in Iraq.

. Because of the ranting of your group, they did not speak out.

Did I rant, or am i part of an homogenous whole, not an individual who has independently researched these events since July 7th? Did I speak out after it being made clear from the beginning that our questions would not be answered? I respected the chair, even though I didn't agree with someone who has fought for freedom of speech denying this to others.

read your laughable pamphlet

It isn't my pamphlet, it is a leaflet for the July 7th truth campaign and independent people's inquiry for truth and justice.

though happily you know better now than to resort to personal abuse as you have in the past.

again, projection I have never resorted to personal abuse, that is your tactic BK not mine.

despite almost nobody in your group having read the book!

I had read it.

I expect you flicked through the book, found it said 7.40am train

I read the whole book.

BTW you forgot to add that Mark Curtis stated that state terrorism kills far more people than personal acts. He also described all the training camps set up by the SIS to train 'Islamic' terrorists.

 

[editor]

It isn't my pamphlet, it is a leaflet for the July 7th truth campaign and independent people's inquiry for truth and justice.

So what do you believe really happened then, and what evidence have you got to support your alternative theory?

You see, it's a bit of a fruitless exercise claiming that it's all a big cover up if you can't come up with a plausible alternative version of events that is supported by credible sources and eye witness accounts.

It's a bit like me insisting that the sun is in fact green with pink spots but then refusing to offer any evidence for that claim.

So far, it seems that all you've got is that someone (possibly) made an error with the train times - and that doesn't really add up to much of a counter-theory in the grand scheme of things.

So, let's start from the basics. If you're saying it wasn't the suspected bombers who were responsible, who was and how did they do it?

And what the chuffin' heck happened to the accused bombers - and how did their DNA and bodily remains get on the scene?

 

[jæd]

There is one of the 4 together at Luton, 30 miles from Kings X. Khan's friends said the video was a fake, it didn't even sound like him.

What about the dna/body parts retreived/personal effects/bombs in their hire car/bomb equipment found in leeds... You seem focussed on one part of 7/7. What about the rest...?

Personally I'm amazed that the Editor has allowed you to post so much...

 

[editor]

Khan's friends said the video was a fake, it didn't even sound like him.

Source, please.

I don't recall his family denying it was him (unless, of course, in your desperation to find a conspiracy you're confusing their meaning with them saying that "'it didn't sound like him" because of the things he was saying, not because they believed there was an imposter in da house).

 

[jæd]

Did I rant, or am i part of an homogenous whole, not an individual who has independently researched these events since July 7th? Did I speak out after it being made clear from the beginning that our questions would not be answered? I respected the chair, even though I didn't agree with someone who has fought for freedom of speech denying this to others.
It isn't my pamphlet, it is a leaflet for the July 7th truth campaign and independent people's inquiry for truth and justice.

Well... From your posts here, and from your blog I see little in the way of "research". You are obbsessed of the train times but, even though you have a Thameslink station close by, you have not visited it.

All you seem to do is sit at home emailing people questions. Ever thought about going and interviewing people. Or is that too confrontational for you...?

 

[TAE]

Hi detective-boy, just to pick on specific points;

Just an observation:

When you have a conspiracy suspicion based on holes in the official story, then fair enough, by all means investigate the official story.

But if you then have to explain away holes in a conspiracy theory's version of events, it gets a bit silly.

 

[Prole]

Source, please.

I don't recall his family denying it was him (unless, of course, in your desperation to find a conspiracy you're confusing their meaning with them saying that "'it didn't sound like him" because of the things he was saying, not because they believed there was an imposter in da house).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1561938,00.html

Also Channel 4 news showed the video to people in Beeston, Khan's friends watched and said 'that isn't even him, doesn't even sound like him'.
As for the families, Khan's family were taken into 'police protection' and their whereabouts are unknown.
Nasreem Suleaman did a Radio 4 'Inside the mind of a suicide bomber' program where she interviews friends of Khan, his best friend says it wasn't him.

 

[TAE]

So his own friends say that wasn't him on the video? That is interesting.

 

[Prole]

BTW khan's family have asked for an independent post-mortem.

 

[Badger Kitten]

Now that is what I call 'projection'. Go on find me just one quote, I have always treated you with respect, as I do with everyone I engage with, and you know it.

Ok, you asked for it...here we go

'The very busy Rachel North, or should that be the only voice of the survivors of July 7th?, seems to have had quite a week'

'...Rachel will really have served her purpose for the State. There are advantages to having 'only one voice' of the survivors of July 7th, it can then be the 'voice' that says the things the State wants us all to hear'

On Wednesday 15th March, she pops up again to express her views on how it took TWO HOURS for ambulances to reach the injured at Russel Square. Do the State Brainwashing Corporation ask one of those that had to wait 2 hours for an ambulance? Maybe one of those severely injured? No, they interview our very own Rachel North who took a cab to the hospital, 30 minutes after the explosion.


Prior to which Rachel North, is invited to speak at Westminster Abbey, as a survivor of July 7th (why not ask an injured survivor? Danny Biddle, Gill Hicks, John Tulloch et al?).

( BTW I was invited to speak as a writer and peace advocate who had set up a survivor group, as it happens, in a part of the service called'Working for Peace', feat. a Muslim and Christian cleric. The survivor group I started contains 102 men and women, black, white, asian, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu... and that was why I was invited to speak.)


More

Clarke will meet privately with KCU and answer their questions, no media will be present, so presumably the 'public' will have no idea what Charlie Boy is asked or what he answers. Well done Rachel what a great day for democracy

.


When getting obsessed about the idea that there are ' secret hidden, unreported bombed trains....

Prole wrote:

Perhaps Rachel might explain in her article how it was possible to board a westbound train from Paddington to Edgware Road? The Circle line train that exploded was travelling Westbound between Edgware Road and Paddington.




I wrote...Bridget, the article is about forgiveness, not trainspotting. The vicar's daughter has been murdered by a bomb, she is dead, her mother the priest cannot forgive the bombers, how do survivors react to the notion of forgiveness towards the bombers, discuss. That is the basis of the article. Though Profumo dying may mean it gets bumped; the whole issue of the ST Review is having to be re-drawn.

Prole wrote back...
Trainspotting, Rachel, or just another inconvenient fact that musn't be allowed to get in the way of a good story?
_________________

Prole again

I must say that I get very fed up with the arrogance of the white middle-class voices that purport to understand what drives young British-born Muslim men into becoming alleged suicide bombers.

Whether Rachel wittingly or un-wittingly co-operates in what is a racist media is her choice.
I for one was appalled at the juxtaposition of images in the Sunday Times article when I read Rachel's Story.

I can't be arsed to go through all th ecrap you left on my blog comments as well.

 

[Prole]

Ed says: It's a bit like me insisting that the sun is in fact green with pink spots but then refusing to offer any evidence for that claim.

Or a bit like saying 4 decent caring young men used an unnecessary tactic (suicide-bombs) and then showing no evidence other than one cctv image from Luton.

Hardly damning evidence methinks.

 

[Badger Kitten]

But I will say this, who asked you to undertake all this 'research'? Who benefits, to use the phraseology you spout? You do. You seem to get a ghoulish thrill out of your hobby. I find your hobby, and you, distasteful, but I would never have got involved with defending myself against you fruitbats if you hadn't come bothering me on my blog. You're fucking obsessed. And why?

Answers on a post card...

 

[editor]

As for the families, Khan's family were taken into 'police protection' and their whereabouts are unknown.

Err, hello?

Afzal Choudhry, a youth worker who spent six months working with Khan in Beeston, hopes they will not.

He said the video may have a positive impact in the long term, forcing young people to accept that he was involved. "It makes it more clear that he perpetrated these acts, it was definitely him, it was his voice and his face, that cannot be denied," he said.

 

[editor]

Or a bit like saying 4 decent caring young men used an unnecessary tactic (suicide-bombs) and then showing no evidence other than one cctv image from Luton.

Hardly damning evidence methinks.

So who did it then?
And where are the bombers now?

I'm getting fed up asking you now.

Kindly produce some credible evidence that supports an alternative theory of events because I'm getting very, very bored with you endlessly trotting out a load of half arsed and thoroughly unresearched 'suspicions.'

 

[editor]

BTW khan's family have asked for an independent post-mortem.

Here's the bit you forgot to mention.

Mohammad Sidique Khan's family say they believe the Circle Line bomber could have been "brainwashed" by terrorists.
In a statement, they described the 30-year-old teacher as "a kind and caring member of our family" and appealed to the public for information.
"We are devastated our son may have been brainwashed into carrying out such an atrocity."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4688623.stm

And here's the bit you might like to take note of:

..."This is a difficult time and we ask you to let us grieve for our son in private."

 

[Badger Kitten]

So who did it then?
And where are the bombers now?

I'm getting fed up asking you now.

Kindly produce some credible evidence that supports an alternative theory of events because I'm getting very, very bored with you endlessly trotting out a load of half arsed and thoroughly unresearched 'suspicions.'

She won't. She just sits there pontificating but will not put any alternative theories, just piously says it is her right to ask questions.

Is Prole a delusional conspiracy theorist fantasist? Or is she, as she claims, a truth-seeker concerned with bringing the facts to a grateful public including victims and survivors as she maintains in her 'official' version. I challenge her official version. I ask questions. Is she a fruitbat from outer space? Is she a far-right anti-Semitic stooge? I only ask questions, as is my right. We must know the truth.

 

[editor]

And here's the words of the father of another bomber:

The father of Shehzad Tanweer, the first of the July 7 suicide bombers to be buried, has spoken for the first time of the "awful" events that claimed the lives of 52 innocent people.

Mr Tanweer said in his first interview since the terrorist attacks: "All the bombings and killings were awful. Only the group of four [bombers] or God alone knows why they carried out this terrible act."

Mr Tanweer said his son was entitled to a proper burial, although the family now intends to discover why he became a suicide bomber. The July 7 attacks killed 56 people, including the bombers, and injured more than 700 others. "My first priority was obviously to bring his dead body to our ancestral graveyard for the burial," he said. "Since I'm able to do this only now, I would soon try to find out the reasons [for the suicide mission] and will tell the world."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...005/10/30/nbomb30.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/10/30

 

[Badger Kitten]

And here is Germaine Lindsey's wife's words ( Picadilly train)

Samantha Lewthwaite said that she “totally abhorred” the actions of her husband Jermaine Lindsay, who killed 26 people on a Piccadilly Line tube train near King’s Cross; but she said that she still wore the white gold ring her husband had given her and would pass it on to their first child, a son, Abdullah, when he marries. Ms Lewthwaite, 21, a Muslim convert, said that her husband had been a peaceful man whose behaviour changed when he began visiting mosques in London and Luton.

She said: “His behaviour gradually began to change. He turned from the man that I married. In hindsight I can now see exactly what was happening to him and why. How these people could have turned him and poisoned his mind is dreadful. He was an innocent, naive and simple man. I suppose he must have been an ideal candidate.”




She said: “The next day they showed me Jamal on CCTV and said his DNA proved he was one of the bombers. My world collapsed, I was in tears thinking, ‘Who was it who poisoned his brain?’ These people managed to twist him so much that he could turn his back on those who meant so much. It shows why all good Muslims have to fight against evil.

“Jamal is accountable for his actions 100 per cent and I condemn with all my heart what he has done. I will try to remember for my children’s sake the Jamal I loved and raise them knowing their father was a man who truly loved them; but the day will come when I’ll have to tell them what he did.”