5 yr old girl & 35 yr old man shot in Stockwell

[RaverDrew]

Well said eric

 

[tommers]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/25/agnes-sina-inakoju-gun-crime

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/shop-shooting-victim-was-innocent-bystander-887364.html

These are a couple that stuck in my mind

Both black teenagers, and the earliest news reports weren't always clear - but both were innocent bystanders, nothing to do with gangs, just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

There was also that guy who was shot in West Norwood whilst sitting in his flat.

http://www.southlondonpost.com/2010/09/14/west-norwood-shooting-victim-named/

 

[stethoscope]

Excellent posts Eric.

 

[Blagsta]

0/10

Yeah, you're losing your touch.

 

[ericjarvis]

I have no regard for the individuals that perpetrated this attempted murder. I also find it very offensive to people who are disavantaged financially or emotionally that people are excusing the idiots using socio-economic factors as an excuse!!

Socio-economic factors are not an excuse. Nobody is saying they are. However they are a causal factor, so to help prevent such things happening again the socio-economic situation has to be changed. That's not any form of excuse for the individuals who did this horrendous thing. It's just a matter of concentrating on how these crimes can be prevented rather than on trying to show how tough we want to be on the perpetrators. It's concentrating on the needs of the victims, and future potential victims, rather than simply reacting emotionally by pouring out bile about the perpetrators.

This is part of the problem. As soon as any of us start looking at any solution other than "hanging them" there are people who try to shout it down by claiming that it is "excusing" the villains, or that it is ignoring the victims. That's one of the reasons things aren't getting any better.

I have no objection to the guilty parties being severely punished. I consider it to be a good thing if they are locked away for the rest of their sorry lives. However I think it's even more important to look at ways of preventing these things happening in the first place.

 

[ericjarvis]

the same kid who gives you a wave in the streat and chats to you about how the local team is doing is the same kid who decides that if some one is trying to kick his head in he needs to get a weapon

yes this is an extreame example but these are still products of the same system.

these kids probably didn't pop out the womb holding a gat ganster style something somewhere made them think that was the right thing to do

From what I can see, and I'm looking from pretty close to ground zero, many of these kids are basically living two completely separate lives. In one they are polite, concerned, and helpful. In the other they are aggressive and violent criminals. It all depends on the company they are in.

 

[Ms T]

That's because we live where these things happen, whereas those in charge of the mainstream media don't. A friend of mine used to be a political reporter with the BBC. He used to live in inner city Tottenham. He got sick of his reports being drastically altered by editors who hadn't a clue about how most of us live in order to replace the facts with something more in tune with the nonsense the tabloids spew out. He's now a science journalist, where at least his editors know they haven't a clue about what he's reporting on.

To a newspaper editor this is a story about people in a place he's never going to go, and which he can potentially twist into something that will appeal to his readership by reinforcing the idea that they must be good people because there are some other people who are just simply "born evil". The media have absolutely no interest in anyone finding solutions to these problems. Nor do the majority of politicians. It suits them fine as things are now. They can use it to back up ridiculously simplistic and repressive legislation whilst not having to face the consequences themselves.

I know quite a few editors at the BBC who do not live in the circumstances you describe. One lives in Bethnal Green, the other in Brixton/Camberwell. Actually, there are quite a few in Camberwell. I think many journalists are well aware of how ordinary people live, because they're pretty ordinarly themselves. You are merely propagating a stereotype, tbh.

 

[Ms T]

@ericjarvis great post. Very interesting to hear about your journo friend having reports altered by BBC eds.

IMO the BBC are about as impartial as Fox news. They consistently toe the gov't line with few exceptions (Dr. Kelly's suicide being the last one I can think of)

That's never been my experience.

 

[ILOVELAMP]

That's never been my experience.

come off it! look at their protest coverage ffs! always looping the violent minority. or any war coverage, so pro gov't it hurts!

anyway, we're off topic here

 

[Ms Ordinary]

Excellent posts Eric.

Yes to that

 

[RaverDrew]

Yeah, you're losing your touch.

Bollox Blagsta, unfortunately this whole thing is fucking far too close to home for me. A friend was caught up in this incident and left pretty upset from what they witnessed. I know a lot of families and teenagers from round Stockwell and they have been pretty shaken by recent events. When I was at the youth centre yesterday it was all the kids could talk about. They are the ones on the front line who are seriously in danger from the gang culture and violence on the streets, not a bunch of internet bods expressing their outrage and scoring political points about the reasons for shit that they have fuck all experience with, just to prove how fucking "right-on" they are. I've seen first hand and had to intervene in plenty of incidents round here recently that have turned nasty for the most ridiculous reasons. There's plenty of ill-informed speculation, stereotyping and bullshit being said on this thread and I'll comment on it exactly how I like thanks.

 

[co-op]

Bollox Blagsta, unfortunately this whole thing is fucking far too close to home for me. A friend was caught up in this incident and left pretty upset from what they witnessed. I know a lot of families and teenagers from round Stockwell and they have been pretty shaken by recent events. When I was at the youth centre yesterday it was all the kids could talk about. They are the ones on the front line who are seriously in danger from the gang culture and violence on the streets, not a bunch of internet bods expressing their outrage and scoring political points about the reasons for shit that they have fuck all experience with, just to prove how fucking "right-on" they are. I've seen first hand and had to intervene in plenty of incidents round here recently that have turned nasty for the most ridiculous reasons. There's plenty of ill-informed speculation, stereotyping and bullshit being said on this thread and I'll comment on it exactly how I like thanks.

If you're so concerned about avoiding "stereotyping and bullshit" etc perhaps you should avoid sticking up silly hit-and-run posts about "liberal hand-wringing"?

There's been some thoughtful stuff posted, mostly by ericjarvis, but others too; respond to it as it deserves.

 

[Rushy]

Great posts Eric. Particularly this:

From what I can see, and I'm looking from pretty close to ground zero, many of these kids are basically living two completely separate lives. In one they are polite, concerned, and helpful. In the other they are aggressive and violent criminals. It all depends on the company they are in.

and this

What they need is for the rest of us to stop abdicating our responsibilities and accept that the ONLY way they are going to learn to live a good life is if they have examples to learn from. That means having the chance to take part in activities with adults as peers and not simply in a supervisory role.

 

[Blagsta]

Bollox Blagsta, unfortunately this whole thing is fucking far too close to home for me. A friend was caught up in this incident and left pretty upset from what they witnessed. I know a lot of families and teenagers from round Stockwell and they have been pretty shaken by recent events. When I was at the youth centre yesterday it was all the kids could talk about. They are the ones on the front line who are seriously in danger from the gang culture and violence on the streets, not a bunch of internet bods expressing their outrage and scoring political points about the reasons for shit that they have fuck all experience with, just to prove how fucking "right-on" they are. I've seen first hand and had to intervene in plenty of incidents round here recently that have turned nasty for the most ridiculous reasons. There's plenty of ill-informed speculation, stereotyping and bullshit being said on this thread and I'll comment on it exactly how I like thanks.

don't be a cock drew. What exactly Is "liberal" about wanting to understand why these things happen and placing them in a social context. That's pretty much the opposite of liberal tbh

Oh and you don't have a monopoly on experience of tragedy.

 

[girasol]

I guess a lot of these kids learn about agression from adults. Agression seems to be everywhere I look, including here. The slightest little things rubs people up the wrong end. Why is humanity in self-destruct mode? So full of hatred and intolerance wherever you look?

Is this because we all come to expect so much from life and get so little? Injustice has always been part of the human condition, but I think people dealt with it more gracefully in the past.

 

[OpalFruit]

@opalfruit

Are you insinuating that I am a mail reader or did I misunderstand your post?

No, I was agreeing with you!

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

LOL.

[snip]

i do know about the situation. i teach on an apprenticeship course one of those supposed new routes into work. i just don't think creating courses magically changes peoples lives and situations on a larger scale

people will have to really really want to a tradesman before the scheme works

thats one of the reasons why a lot of the time it's music or sports programs. it's because they are the projects that people want to get into


yeah having good vocational courses is a good thing but it doesn't magic away people dissatisfation

 

[Citizen66]

A lot of these kids are on the wrong path waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before offers of apprenticeships come their way.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

yeah this is way of tangent really

 

[miss minnie]

I live a few blocks from this incident. It happened on Tues night, the Thurs before that we had a bunch of kids arrive from the same general direction and a series of skirmishes took place with my neighbours. On the Fri night a bunch of kids on bikes accompanied by a car arrived and a neighbour was stabbed. Police attended both incidents.

This sort of thing is not very common here, it happens only sporadically. Its not necessarily symptomatic of deprivation or anything else, there are loads of kids around here living the same sort of existence and the majority of them get by without forays into crime, violence etc.

Some years ago I witnessed a bit of 'gang culture' arise on this patch. There was a very definite leader and when he left the scene the gang subsided straight away. Quite decent kids if you got to chat with any, away from the 'gang'.

 

[wemakeyousoundb]

Socio-economic factors are not an excuse. Nobody is saying they are. However they are a causal factor, so to help prevent such things happening again the socio-economic situation has to be changed. That's not any form of excuse for the individuals who did this horrendous thing. It's just a matter of concentrating on how these crimes can be prevented rather than on trying to show how tough we want to be on the perpetrators. It's concentrating on the needs of the victims, and future potential victims, rather than simply reacting emotionally by pouring out bile about the perpetrators.

This is part of the problem. As soon as any of us start looking at any solution other than "hanging them" there are people who try to shout it down by claiming that it is "excusing" the villains, or that it is ignoring the victims. That's one of the reasons things aren't getting any better.

I have no objection to the guilty parties being severely punished. I consider it to be a good thing if they are locked away for the rest of their sorry lives. However I think it's even more important to look at ways of preventing these things happening in the first place.

Thanks for this post in particular, there are way too many people who equate understanding the causes/origins of an act with excusing it.

 

[co-op]

This sort of thing is not very common here, it happens only sporadically. Its not necessarily symptomatic of deprivation or anything else, there are loads of kids around here living the same sort of existence and the majority of them get by without forays into crime, violence etc..

This just isn't true; it is highly symptomatic of deprivation and there is a very clear correlation between social status and likelihood to resort to violence. The fact that "loads of other kids around here living the same sort of existence" don't become violent proves nothing. It simply means that low social status is a risk factor (probably the major social risk factor) but that other things are needed to tip any one individual over the edge. It would be impossible to ignore gender for example since men are vastly more likely to react to perceived insult with violence than women are.

To simplify wildly, honour and self-respect become more and more important the further down the social scale you go because they are in shorter and shorter supply, that's what being poor is; being systematically dishonoured and socially shamed. It's why you don't meet many middle-class hard men.

 

[tommers]

I don't know, there's a few on here.

 

[RaverDrew]

Thanks for this post in particular, there are way too many people who equate understanding the causes/origins of an act with excusing it.

Get ready for the liberal backlash...

 

[RaverDrew]

This just isn't true; it is highly symptomatic of deprivation and there is a very clear correlation between social status and likelihood to resort to violence. The fact that "loads of other kids around here living the same sort of existence" don't become violent proves nothing. It simply means that low social status is a risk factor (probably the major social risk factor) but that other things are needed to tip any one individual over the edge. It would be impossible to ignore gender for example since men are vastly more likely to react to perceived insult with violence than women are.

To simplify wildly, honour and self-respect become more and more important the further down the social scale you go because they are in shorter and shorter supply, that's what being poor is; being systematically dishonoured and socially shamed. It's why you don't meet many middle-class hard men.

I don't think I've ever seen so much bollox in my whole life.

Utterly amazing that you are lecturing minnie about not understanding what happens on her own doorstep.

You clearly know so much better than anyone who has to deal with these particular kids on a day to day basis.

 

[co-op]

I don't know, there's a few on here.

Hmm. "The effect of internet bulletin boards on bourgeois machismo"


*strokes chin pensively*



I feel a thesis coming on.

 

[co-op]

I don't think I've ever seen so much bollox in my whole life.

Utterly amazing that you are lecturing minnie about not understanding what happens on her own doorstep.

You clearly know so much better than anyone who has to deal with these particular kids on a day to day basis.

I've probably lived in Stockwell longer than most people on these boards, you idiot.


Why not try addressing some of the attempts to discuss this subject intelligently, or is that utterly beyond you?

 

[ajdown]

Whilst you've all been arguing, it seems that the police have arrested one of the three - a 19 year old man.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12923726

 

[leanderman]

With social mobility falling and inequality rising, such tragic events are no surprise.

The wealthy increasingly dominate the best schools, universities and careers - on a hereditary basis - leaving everyone else literally to fight over the scraps.

 

[RaverDrew]

I've probably lived in Stockwell longer than most people on these boards, you idiot.


Why not try addressing some of the attempts to discuss this subject intelligently, or is that utterly beyond you?

So these kids were chasing the other kids and looking to shoot them because of poverty and their upbringing. Nothing to do with bravado, peer-pressure or losing face ? Righto...

Maybe you should quit using this debate to score "right-on points" and stop patronising people that actually engage with these youngsters on a regular basis ?