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Chris Kaba, 24, shot dead by police in Streatham, Mon 5th Sept 2022

It might well be the case that the tactics should be reviewed but as you say, nobody seems to be calling for that.

Instead the outcry is to demand that someone gets wrongly convicted of murder, and to claim some sort of miscarriage of justice when they're not.
The IPCC recommended a review in 2005 and it doesn't seem to have taken place. The Met are basically a law unto themselves and desperately in need of huge structural reform.

 
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The IPCC recommended a review in 2005 and it doesn't seem to have taken place. The Met are basically a lawbunto themselves and desperately in need of hige structural reform.


So do you think that because the Met didn't review that tactic in 2014, Blake is guilty of murder?
 
Probably several reasons, but none matter.

The jury were not there to consider the operational tactics. They were there to decide whether or not Blake murdered Kaba.
juries are generally instructed to listen to the evidence and make decisions based on that. and they did hear evidence about the operational tactics of the night (see for example Police marksman who gunned down Chris Kaba was 'calm and collected'). now, i know you like to set yourself up as a legal expert apparently based on having done jury service, but the tactics of the night feed quite clearly into a) the context of the incident and b) the jury's consideration of the legality of the action blake took and you don't need to have sat with 11 other good people and true to know that.
 
juries are generally instructed to listen to the evidence and make decisions based on that. and they did hear evidence about the operational tactics of the night (see for example Police marksman who gunned down Chris Kaba was 'calm and collected'). now, i know you like to set yourself up as a legal expert apparently based on having done jury service, but the tactics of the night feed quite clearly into a) the context of the incident and b) the jury's consideration of the legality of the action blake took and you don't need to have sat with 11 other good people and true to know that.

I’m not sure what you think your killer point is here but you seem to have ejaculated a whole post arguing against points I haven’t made.

I claim no expertise based on jury service but I do understand what murder is.
 
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Just a question.

I thought you were about to take us on a trip down Silly Street, like Pickman's has, but I appreciate the fact that you haven't.
Seriously don't know what the point of your posts here and on the other thread is. Seems as usual you're just looking for some kind of argument rather than actually discussing anything.
 
Seriously don't know what the point of your posts here and on the other thread is. Seems as usual you're just looking for some kind of argument rather than actually discussing anything.

The point of my posts is perfectly clear. Blake didn't commit murder and multiple posters have explained why.

I'm happy to discuss anything you like, Ed. I'm only responding to people quoting me. I can't help the fact that you and a couple of others get upset that things aren't going your way.
 
The point of my posts is perfectly clear. Blake didn't commit murder and multiple posters have explained why.

I'm happy to discuss anything you like, Ed. I can't help the fact that you and others get upset when things don't go your way.
Again - you obviously haven't read any of my posts. I said it was pretty clear he wouldn't get convicted of murder right when the trial started. Seems pretty clear the intention of charging him with murder was to limit any actual probing of what happened and you seem more than happy to go along with that.
 
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The mayor is not police commissioner for London. The met's commissioner is mark Rowley.
my error it should read that the Mayor is the equivalent of the Police and Crime Commissioners be it his title is is the occupant of the Mayor's Office for Policing and Crime (MOPAC) except for the city of London police. A sort of strange job really as on certain matters he works with the home sec . I think appointing the Police commissioner for the Met it’s the Home Sec with an input from the Mayor.
 
Again - you obviously haven't read any of my posts. I said it was pretty clear he wouldn't get convicted of murder right when the trial started. Seems pretty clear the intention of charging him with murder was to limit any actual probing of what happened and you seem more than happy to go along with that.

You're right; that's a new one on me.

Good that we agree this wasn't murder.

So you're saying that the CPS conspired with the Police (?) to wrongly charge a serving police officer with murder, to deflect attention from other things.

Have I got that right?
 
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Is "intention" an essential part of the definition of murder?
If I shoot someone and they die, but I did not intend to kill them, only to wound them, have I committed murder?
 
Yes.



The intent doesn't have to be to kill. The intent to commit serious injury is enough to warrant a murder charge.
So, in other words, the intention does not matter in the case of someone shooting someone. A police officer who shoots someone, thereby causing their death, can only be charged with murder? They cannot be charge with manslaughter?
 
You're right; that's a new one on me.

Good that we agree this wasn't murder.

So you're saying that the CPS conspired with the Police (?) to wrongly charge a serving police officer with murder, to deflect attention from other things.

Have I got that right?
Again, not what I said. But surely you can see that by letting the jury make the decision it means less of a problem for the CPS.

Not sure where you got conspiring with the police from, do you mean the IOPC?

I think that's a fairly uncontroversial view considering how incredibly thin the prosecution case was.
 
I’m not sure what you think your killer point is here but you seem to have ejaculated a whole post arguing against points I haven’t made.

I claim no expertise based on jury service but I do understand what murder is.
maybe you do. so too i imagine do the cps who brought the prosecution. you seem rather to be basing your argument on a jury infallibility which perhaps they don't merit - two obvious perversities that leap to mind are the o.j. simpson trial and the cops accused in the rodney king case.
 
So, in other words, the intention does not matter in the case of someone shooting someone. A police officer who shoots someone, thereby causing their death, can only be charged with murder? They cannot be charge with manslaughter?

Anyone can be charged with manslaughter.

It's also sometimes offered to juries as an alternative verdict to murder. The prosecution in this case did ask for manslaughter to be considered. The judge refused on the basis that the jury had to decide on whether the killing was lawful. If they believed it was, then Blake couldn't be guilty of manslaughter either. If they felt the killing was unlawful, Blake would be guilty of murder.
 
Anyone can be charged with manslaughter.

It's also sometimes offered to juries as an alternative verdict to murder. The prosecution in this case did ask for manslaughter to be considered. The judge refused on the basis that the jury had to decide on whether the killing was lawful. If they believed it was, then Blake couldn't be guilty of manslaughter either. If they felt the killing was unlawful, Blake would be guilty of murder.
Does the direction of the judge make sense?
 
Again - you obviously haven't read any of my posts. I said it was pretty clear he wouldn't get convicted of murder right when the trial started. Seems pretty clear the intention of charging him with murder was to limit any actual probing of what happened and you seem more than happy to go along with that.
 
Anyone can be charged with manslaughter.

It's also sometimes offered to juries as an alternative verdict to murder. The prosecution in this case did ask for manslaughter to be considered. The judge refused on the basis that the jury had to decide on whether the killing was lawful. If they believed it was, then Blake couldn't be guilty of manslaughter either. If they felt the killing was unlawful, Blake would be guilty of murder.
Not sure that's true, think the judge wouldn't offer manslaughter as shooting a gun at someone was interrupted as knowing there was a strong likelihood of them being killed. Manslaughter is as unlawful as murder isn't it?
 
Again, not what I said. But surely you can see that by letting the jury make the decision it means less of a problem for the CPS.

Not sure where you got conspiring with the police from, do you mean the IOPC?

I think that's a fairly uncontroversial view considering how incredibly thin the prosecution case was.

The big takeaway here is your last line.

That's what I, and others have been arguing here. Other people here have been calling this "murder", "execution", "extra judicial killing" etc.

I've not formed a view on your CPS theory, but on the main issue, you and I are in agreement.

Welcome aboard :thumbs:
 
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