Chris Kaba, 24, shot dead by police in Streatham, Mon 5th Sept 2022

[SLBDWELL]

A very interesting discussion

 

[Spymaster]

Does the direction of the judge make sense?

Yes.

 

[PTK]

Yes.

Why cannot it have been manslaughter?

 

[Spymaster]

Why cannot it have been manslaughter?

Manslaughter is about intent.

It would be very difficult to argue that Blake did not intend to at least cause serious injury to Kaba. He shot him. That intent to cause serious injury would satisfy a murder charge. Therefore, manslaughter is off the table. He either murdered him or he didn't. This case turned on whether Blake fired the shot in self defence; not whether or not he intended to kill or injure Kaba.

Explained here.

 

[SLBDWELL]

Manslaughter is about intent.

It would be very difficult to argue that Blake did not intend to at least cause serious injury to Kaba. He shot him. That intent to cause serious injury would satisfy a murder charge. Therefore, manslaughter is off the table. He either murdered him or he didn't. This case turned on whether Blake fired the shot in self defence; not whether or not he intended to kill or injure Kaba.

Explained here.

I have just read the IOPC document 'factsheet fatal shooting of Chris Kaba' October 2024. Its clear to me that a very through investigation was carried out by both the IOPC and the CPS. The document stated 'During the investigation, the officer was advised they were under criminal investigation for murder’ . A file was then sent to the CPS. Who applied the codes and evidential tests for making charging decisions. The CPS were clearly satisfied that their was enough evidence to provide a "realistic prospect of conviction ‘ for murder . I assume during that process the CPS would have consulted with top experienced KC(s) in these matters and a decision was a murder charge was appropriate and therefore would have a ‘realistic prospect of conviction’. The guardian wrote an excellent article on this issue manslaughter v murder. As you say the case focus was whether Blake fired the shot in self defence.

 

[Spymaster]

I have just read the IOPC document 'factsheet fatal shooting of Chris Kaba' October 2024. Its clear to me that a very through investigation was carried out by both the IOPC and the CPS. The document stated 'During the investigation, the officer was advised they were under criminal investigation for murder’ . A file was then sent to the CPS. Who applied the codes and evidential tests for making charging decisions. The CPS were clearly satisfied that their was enough evidence to provide a "realistic prospect of conviction ‘ for murder . I assume during that process the CPS would have consulted with top experienced KC(s) in these matters and a decision was a murder charge was appropriate and therefore would have a ‘realistic prospect of conviction’. The guardian wrote an excellent article on this issue manslaughter v murder. As you say the case focus was whether Blake fired the shot in self defence.

Well yes. If the CPS never got it wrong, nobody would ever be acquitted would they.

It does raise the question of how they got it so wrong with this that the jury kicked it out with such minimal consideration though. Whilst the theory of my new ally edcraw is interesting, I'd be more inclined to believe that it was a shameful and misguided effort to placate the pitchfork brigade.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well yes. If the CPS never got it wrong, nobody would ever be acquitted would they.

It does raise the question of how they got it so wrong with this that the jury kicked it out with such minimal consideration though. Whilst the theory of my new ally edcraw is interesting, I'd be more inclined to believe that it was a shameful and misguided effort to placate the pitchfork brigade.

I for one wouldn't take a pitchfork up against cops armed with guns

 

[krtek a houby]

I for one wouldn't take a pitchfork up against cops armed with guns

Not just the filth, but their enablers too.

 

[Spymaster]

I for one wouldn't take a pitchfork up against cops armed with guns

Well it's easy enough to do.

Just pop down to Whitehall, and try your luck.



Give me a shout and I'll come and take pictures.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well it's easy enough to do.

Just pop down to Whitehall, and try your luck.

View attachment 448866

Give me a shout and I'll come and take pictures.

which part of 'wouldn't' isn't getting through to you?

 

[Spymaster]

which part of 'wouldn't' isn't getting through to you?

Ah, interesting.

Looks like Krtek read it the same way I did.

Did you get a quick edit in?

 

[SLBDWELL]

Well yes. If the CPS never got it wrong, nobody would ever be acquitted would they.

It does raise the question of how they got it so wrong with this that the jury kicked it out with such minimal consideration though. Whilst the theory of my new ally edcraw is interesting, I'd be more inclined to believe that it was a shameful and misguided effort to placate the pitchfork brigade.

Agree, how the IOPC but more so the CPS after looking at all the evidence, discussion, advice, probing the evidence, what the defence case may be and how that is likely to affect the prosecution case etc and it takes a jury around 3 hours. In September 2023 the CPS issued this statement “Following a thorough review of the evidence provided by the IOPC (Independent Office for Police Conduct), the CPS has authorised a charge of murder against a Metropolitan Police officer following the death of Chris Kaba. The CPS statement of the 21st October 2024 stated “This has been a complex and sensitive case and the decision to prosecute was made after an in-depth consideration of all the available evidence. “We recognise that firearms officers operate under enormous pressure, but it is our responsibility to put cases before a jury that meet our test for prosecution, and we are satisfied that test was met in this case. “It is therefore right that the case was put before the jury for them to scrutinise and to decide. They have carefully considered each piece of evidence, including video and Martyn Blake’s own account. They have made up their minds in the proper way and we thank them for doing so.” The constant theme of the CPS is ‘thorough review’ , ‘in depth consideration of the evidence’ ‘ satisfied that test was met in this case’. However with all of that around 3 hours of jury deliberation.

 

[Pickman's model]

Ah, interesting.

Looks like Krtek read it the same way I did.

Did you get a quick edit in?

No, it's as I posted it

 

[Pickman's model]

Not just the filth, but their enablers too.

Yeh they can't carry guns all the time

 

[Spymaster]

However with all of that around 3 hours of jury deliberation.

Yes, it’s bordering on contemptuous isn’t it?

At least they didn’t come back with “fuck off”.

 

[dessiato]

Maybe - but pretty sure they do it as a way of making it seem more personal and being a bit of a bully which is their main reason for hanging around here.

Spymaster has been here 23 years, you've been here 3. In that time do you not think that a) if he was so very bad he'd have gone by now, and b) you've been here long enough to, feeling as you seem to, use the ignore button?

 

[Spymaster]

Spymaster has been here 23 years, you've been here 3. In that time do you not think that a) if he was so very bad he'd have gone by now, and b) you've been here long enough to, feeling as you seem to, use the ignore button?

Ah, Ed's ok. He's on team Spymaster now.

He'll be well chuffed when he wakes up tomorrow and finds he's got better looking too.

 

[edcraw]

Spymaster has been here 23 years, you've been here 3. In that time do you not think that a) if he was so very bad he'd have gone by now, and b) you've been here long enough to, feeling as you seem to, use the ignore button?

Imagine being a dick on the same forum for 23 years...

 

[edcraw]

Ah, Ed's ok. He's on team Spymaster now.

He'll be well chuffed when he wakes up tomorrow and finds he's got better looking too.

 

[Spymaster]

Imagine being a dick on the same forum for 23 years...

Not just this one, tbf.

 

[emanymton]

Imagine being a dick on the same forum for 23 years...

just a couple more years and I won't have to imagine it.

 

[krtek a houby]

The Birmingham 6, Guilford 4 and Maguire 7 spring to mind, as does the Gibraltar murders of 1988. Although the latter executions were carried out with trial or jury.

The British "justice" system needs dismantling and a fairer one put in place.

Mr paulee

You think the way Irish people have been treated by the British system is funny?

Or you don't agree that the system needs dismantling?

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

You think the way Irish people have been treated by the British system is funny?

As an aside this post gave me a memory of reading "Cormac Strikes Back" when young.

 

[SLBDWELL]

Yes, it’s bordering on contemptuous isn’t it?

At least they didn’t come back with “fuck off”.

I’m not sure that the mayor could say anything else, what would have happened if he had said “the jury got it wrong”

Fair point. But I feel he could have said words to the effect of’ the jury came to its decision today and as Mayor for london we thank them for doing so’.

 

[alex_]

Fair point. But I feel he could have said words to the effect of’ the jury came to its decision today and as Mayor for london we thank them for doing so’.

I’m not sure what that adds

 

[SLBDWELL]

Agree, how the IOPC but more so the CPS after looking at all the evidence, discussion, advice, probing the evidence, what the defence case may be and how that is likely to affect the prosecution case etc and it takes a jury around 3 hours. In September 2023 the CPS issued this statement “Following a thorough review of the evidence provided by the IOPC (Independent Office for Police Conduct), the CPS has authorised a charge of murder against a Metropolitan Police officer following the death of Chris Kaba. The CPS statement of the 21st October 2024 stated “This has been a complex and sensitive case and the decision to prosecute was made after an in-depth consideration of all the available evidence. “We recognise that firearms officers operate under enormous pressure, but it is our responsibility to put cases before a jury that meet our test for prosecution, and we are satisfied that test was met in this case. “It is therefore right that the case was put before the jury for them to scrutinise and to decide. They have carefully considered each piece of evidence, including video and Martyn Blake’s own account. They have made up their minds in the proper way and we thank them for doing so.” The constant theme of the CPS is ‘thorough review’ , ‘in depth consideration of the evidence’ ‘ satisfied that test was met in this case’. However with all of that around 3 hours of jury deliberation.

tonight at 8pm BBC 1 panorama - should be very interesting. from what i saw of a clip on tonight's BBC London - The IOPC investigator gives his reason to pass it to the CPS. What i heard i just want to make sure I heard it right- the standard gives an insight Police watchdog defends Chris Kaba murder investigation despite marksman’s acquittal

 

[edcraw]

Interesting article here about the police getting carried away with a belief that someone's dangerous and then killing them - then trying to justify their actions - with absolutely zero remorse for killing an entirety innocent person and willing to lie to conceal the truth.

Met officer who killed Jean Charles de Menezes on tube defends his actions

Retired officer says he feared he was about to die when he shot innocent man he mistook for terrorist in 2005

www.theguardian.com

Also worth remembering that no one faced any actions over the killing of an entirely innocent man and the commander actually ended up being promoted to head the Met.

So please excuse me when I'm slightly sceptical of the police killing an unarmed black man when they just close up shop and not seek to learn any lessons at all.

If the police can't manage to tell the truth over Jean Charles De Menezes why should we have any faith in them at any other time.

 

[Spymaster]

Interesting article here about the police getting carried away with a belief that someone's dangerous and then killing them - then trying to justify their actions - with absolutely zero remorse for killing an entirety innocent person and willing to lie to conceal the truth.

Met officer who killed Jean Charles de Menezes on tube defends his actions

Retired officer says he feared he was about to die when he shot innocent man he mistook for terrorist in 2005

www.theguardian.com

Also worth remembering that no one faced any actions over the killing of an entirely innocent man and the commander actually ended up being promoted to head the Met.

So please excuse me when I'm slightly sceptical of the police killing an unarmed black man when they just close up shop and not seek to learn any lessons at all.

If the police can't manage to tell the truth over Jean Charles De Menezes why should we have any faith in them at any other time.

The shooting officer wasn't "getting carried away with a belief" that JCDM was dangerous. He was absolutely certain of it. He just did his job.

The fuck-up wasn't his. It was in the intelligence that led to him being told, in no uncertain terms, to stop JCDM from boarding the train.

Far more police heads should have rolled on that, particularly Dick's, but his wasn't one of them.

 

[edcraw]

The shooting officer wasn't "getting carried away with a belief" that JCDM was dangerous. He was absolutely certain of it. He just did his job.

The fuck-up wasn't his. It was in the intelligence that led to him being told, in no uncertain terms, to stop JCDM from boarding the train.

Far more police heads should have rolled on that, particularly Dick's, but his wasn't one of them.

Not sure he's entirely innocent tbh. The officers claimed to have shouted "armed police" and that JCDM moved towards when neither were true. One of them also deleted evidence. Giving a self serving interview in which he lies again about shouting "armed police" is pretty out of order as well tbh.

But, yes, there were many major fuck ups and many heads should have rolled but none did and Cressida Dick in fact ends up with the top job. The Met needs major reform and/or to be broken up. The fact they are unwilling to learn anything from the Chris Kaba killing just highlights this. Their first instinct is always to lie and cover up.

 

[Pickman's model]

Not sure he's entirely innocent tbh. The officers claimed to have shouted "armed police" and that JCDM moved towards when neither were true. One of them also deleted evidence. Giving a self serving interview in which he lies again about shouting "armed police" is pretty out of order as well tbh.

But, yes, there were many major fuck ups and many heads should have rolled but none did and Cressida Dick in fact ends up with the top job. The Met needs major reform and/or to be broken up. The fact they are unwilling to learn anything from the Chris Kaba killing just highlights this. Their first instinct is always to lie and cover up.

Not to mention that's their second instinct too