I don't wish to derail this thread (as it isn't really relevant) and I agree with your last sentence but I'm not sure if the explanation you give for Klebold and Harris's actions is actually borne out by what happened before the shooting, although it was definitely the initial narrative immediately after. But in any case maybe discussion of what constitutes "gang crime" could be an interesting thread on its own.
5 yr old girl & 35 yr old man shot in Stockwell
- Thread starter wemakeyousoundb
- Start date
tommers
It was... Rebekah Vardy's account
There's a hell of a lot of generalising going on in this thread. Do any of us actually know any of the kids involved?
All we know is they were black teenagers on bikes. Somehow we've got to them being the products of broken homes, suffering extreme poverty, playing up (or maybe not) at school, responding to a perceived insult, being gang members blah blah blah.
We don't know any of this stuff, it's all just being assumed.
All we know is they were black teenagers on bikes. Somehow we've got to them being the products of broken homes, suffering extreme poverty, playing up (or maybe not) at school, responding to a perceived insult, being gang members blah blah blah.
We don't know any of this stuff, it's all just being assumed.
The Octagon
Stop...Hammertime
I know this is slightly off-topic, and JWH has kind of covered it, but the above is the media spin on Columbine, not the reality. Harris was a sadistic bully throughout school and Klebold, although prone to depression and erratic behaviour, had other close friends and wasn't above preying on those weaker than himself.
They didn't 'snap' against their fellow pupils after being beaten or ridiculed, they systematically developed and planned, over months and even years, what would turn out to be a failed bombing of the school cafeteria, egging each other on at various stages until it was too late to turn back. Only when the bombs failed did they start shooting.
The whole situation seems pretty far removed from what happened in Stockwell, IMO.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
I wasn't trying to make the direct comparison, but ericjarvis had raised the question of outbreaks of extreme violence in wealthy communities and Columbine was an example of that, in fact that was why it got so much attention in the States - it was considered anomalous.
FWIW I don't think anything you say above about Klebold and Harris particularly undermines what I said about them - and as the subject becomes political pretty much immediately I'd expect there to be controversy over the ownership of their story.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
We've moved from the specific incident to discussing the roots of violence, from the arena of the concrete & anecdotal to the arena of abstract thought. No one's made any claim to know exactly what happened in this case or what the 'provocation' for it was. The question being discussed is, does social deprivation have a role to play in violence?
Given all the recent shootings and stabbings that have occurred in the Brixton/Stockwell area, I don't really believe this. Gang violence seems more prevalent this year then in years past, but perhaps that is just because it's more public then before.
editor
hiraethified
Shootings are considerably down on previous years.
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
An urban thread with liberal hand-wringing and navel gazing ?No wai !!!
What do you mean by "liberal" in this context? Someone who subscribes to liberalism as a philosophy? or something else?
ericjarvis
give a feck for the feckless
Not directly so far as I am aware. I know some people that almost certainly know them if they are from the Stockwell Park Estate. However I know a few kids from the Angell Town gang.
ericjarvis
give a feck for the feckless
Actually I was trying to point out that many of the principle elements of gang culture are there amongst privileged kids, but seen very differently by the media and the criminal justice system.
ericjarvis
give a feck for the feckless
Elijah Kerr. The book is called "Street Kids" if I recall correctly. Thing is you have to bear in mind that he's nobody's fool and busily trying to create a gang history for Angell Town that he sees as likely to be a positive influence. So the book contains a lot of interesting stuff, and it gives some insight into the gang mindset, but it can't be relied on as a "historical document". Well worth reading though.
I've met him, though I wouldn't say I count him as somebody I know. I've also got his album, which is disappointing. He can rap and he has some things worth saying, but unfortunately the music simply doesn't cut it.
Mrs Redboots
Ice dancer
Because it is a lot easier to have a legal gun in the country than in the city - farmers, gamekeepers, etc, can usually get shotgun licenses....
ericjarvis
give a feck for the feckless
Something backed up by what I heard from the former beat bobby for the area when I discussed the book with him.
As I said, it's well worth reading and a point of view well worth looking at, however it's far from the whole story in and of itself. Everyone should read it, but should understand that simply having read it doesn't mean they know all about gangs in Angell Town.
Street Boys.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
For your information I have lived in central Brixton for many years. I seen a lot of things. Including 4 youths stab a Taxi driver for no other reason than respect. Multiple wounds with Stanley knives. An incident I was one of only 2 people prepared to come forward as witnesses.
If my comments are right on or liberal hand wringing I think im entitled to them. I live in the middle of this.
I can understand why people like Giles are outraged by this. Its just that at some point one has to step back and look at the underlying causes.
Also I think not all the parents of these youths are lone single parents with absent fathers.
When the case I was a witness for ( attempted murder) came to court some of the defendants parents came to court. They all looked gutted that there children had done this.
I dont have all the answers about why this kind of violence happens.
That's interesting, and good! Where did you get the data for this? I can't find a good source, and the met's crime map tracking site is pretty rubbish for information.
Mrs Magpie
On a bit of break...
16% down is the figure I've heard. Met bod on Radio 4 talking on the Today programme this morning about the Stockwell Road shooting. Still available on i-Player or the Today website.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Its down 27.2% when u compare February 2010 and February 2011 according to Met site for London.
http://www.met.police.uk/crimefigures/textonly_month.htm
In Lambeth the gun crime figures are static:
http://www.met.police.uk/crimefigures/boroughs/lx_month - mps.htm
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
RaverDrew - doesn't it look to you like most of the people posting on this thread are pretty local to what's happened? I've lived in Brixton and Stockwell since the mid-80s, including about at least 12 years on the Loughborough Estate and Spurgeon in Stockwell. I've seen plenty and had to intervene in stuff too, it's kind of inevitable unless you are living in some sort of gated community or one of the real enclaves of wealth somewhere. I'm really struggling to work out why your shouty response is so much more 'realistic' or useful than posters questioning some of the more obvious (and - arguably wrongheaded) kneejerk responses.
I'm really not the slightest bit interested in being "right-on" and I'd guess I have quite a bit more experience of the area and some of its problems than you have. Instead of hurling stereotypical insults around why not post an opinion or two - why does this happen? what can we do about it? - and try and justify those opinions with argument and evidence?
Three days on and my comments are still bothering you enough to bump this thread again ?
Drop me out....How about you leave this thread to be used for reporting about the incident that happened eh ?
If you want to glory-wank and pollute this topic with your personal social and political theories on youth crime, then you wont be getting another response from me. I've said all I have to say. It is what it is, take what you want from it.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
Three days on and my comments are still bothering you enough to bump this thread again ?
How about you leave this thread to be used for reporting about the incident that happened eh ?
If you want to glory-wank and pollute this topic with your personal social and political theories on youth crime, then you wont be getting another response from me. I've said all I have to say. It is what it is, take what you want from it.
I'm sorry you think discussing the possible reasons for this sad event is a 'glory-wank'. I'm also not sure why it's ok for you to shoot your mouth off and not for anyone else. But if you don't want to, or can't, explain why you think what you do, that's your perogative.
Mrs Magpie
On a bit of break...
Drew's friend was in the shop when it happened so his feelings are doubtless ravelled up in that. It must have been terrifying.
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