That's not what I said at all.
5 yr old girl & 35 yr old man shot in Stockwell
- Thread starter wemakeyousoundb
- Start date
That's not what I said at all.
Perhaps i interpreted it incorrectly then. As you were.
Utterly amazing that you are lecturing minnie about not understanding what happens on her own doorstep.
You clearly know so much better than anyone who has to deal with these particular kids on a day to day basis.
ericjarvis
give a feck for the feckless
The problem with this thread is that people have quite different reactions to this sort of thing. Some people have an overriding emotional response that lasts for quite a while, some people quickly get over the initial emotional response and try to react purely logically, and some of us have built up a huge store of anger over similar incidents over many years and react with a conditioned reflex that may be based on either emotion or logical analysis. It's very easy to see ones own reaction as being the only sensible one, and every alternative a sign of something being badly wrong. In fact all the reactions are reasonable. However, whilct I accept that an instinctive emotional revulsion is something that has to be taken into account, I object to the idea that because that's how some people react that the rest of us shouldn't get on with a logical analysis of how to improve things.
So. Drew, Giles, and so on, I'm not belittling the emotions behind your responses, but they don't give you the right to accuse anyone who expresses anything else as being unconcerned/unaware/pretentiously "right-on"/excusing the criminals etc. Personally I've just been too effing close to too many dumb violent assaults to waste time on righteous anger when we've already gone through all the same shit hundreds of times. I have an initial reaction of being absolutely livid that every time these things happen the mainstream of the media, and the bulk of the general public, simply have a short spell of berating the "wickedness of kids today", an even shorter period of handwringing and bemoaning the loss of a fictional golden age when these things didn't happen (which usually means grieving for a childhood when these things weren't relevant), and then fuck all until it happens again. Just once I'd like to see some concerted effort to see whether it's possible to come up with sensible and rational ways in which WE (by which I mean all of us and not some mysterious "they" acting on our behalf) can do something towards making it less likely to happen again.
Attacking everyone who doesn't respond with the correct emotional over reaction doesn't get us anywhere.
So. Drew, Giles, and so on, I'm not belittling the emotions behind your responses, but they don't give you the right to accuse anyone who expresses anything else as being unconcerned/unaware/pretentiously "right-on"/excusing the criminals etc. Personally I've just been too effing close to too many dumb violent assaults to waste time on righteous anger when we've already gone through all the same shit hundreds of times. I have an initial reaction of being absolutely livid that every time these things happen the mainstream of the media, and the bulk of the general public, simply have a short spell of berating the "wickedness of kids today", an even shorter period of handwringing and bemoaning the loss of a fictional golden age when these things didn't happen (which usually means grieving for a childhood when these things weren't relevant), and then fuck all until it happens again. Just once I'd like to see some concerted effort to see whether it's possible to come up with sensible and rational ways in which WE (by which I mean all of us and not some mysterious "they" acting on our behalf) can do something towards making it less likely to happen again.
Attacking everyone who doesn't respond with the correct emotional over reaction doesn't get us anywhere.
clandestino
no llevar papel
17 year old suspect of the shooting has been stabbed, and is currently in Kings.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20110405/tuk-teenage-shooting-suspect-stabbed-6323e80.html
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20110405/tuk-teenage-shooting-suspect-stabbed-6323e80.html
I think maybe so, the context of that comment was co-op trying to lecture minnie about an incident that she saw happen right outside her home, and that he didn't. Completely daft imo. But hey ho, just my opinion innit.
I got no beef with anyone on this thread, but I've clearly upset some and unintentionally derailed the thread somewhat by using the word liberal. I won't bother again, but I still stand by everything I've said.
Btw eric I think that most of what you've posted is absolutely spot on, and also put far more eloquently than I could ever manage.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
I think maybe so, the context of that comment was co-op trying to lecture minnie about an incident that she saw happen right outside her home, and that he didn't. Completely daft imo. But hey ho, just my opinion innit.
I got no beef with anyone on this thread, but I've clearly upset some and unintentionally derailed the thread somewhat by using the word liberal. I won't bother again, but I still stand by everything I've said.
Btw eric I think that most of what you've posted is absolutely spot on, and also put far more eloquently than I could ever manage.
I think it's pretty obvious that I wasn't trying to "lecture" anyone, I said I thought something that someone had posted was wrong and I don't think I did so rudely. She obviously took umbrage but that's quite normal on the internet.
TBF I was a bit ruder to you but then you were dishing it out, so there you go.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Good point. As im one of those who can be characterised as "liberal handwringer" I would add that I can have all the responses to an incident like this together. That is why i have some sympathy for Giles.
If I had been present my reaction would have not been rational. The instance where i did witness this kind of violence left an indelible mark on me. However it was not until Raverdrew wound me up that i remembered it. I had pushed it out of my conscious memory.
Shippou-Sensei
4:1:2.5
childish banter is more along the lines of yo mama jokes* this on the other hand is very much adult banter and is generally 90% of what goes on on urban without it threads would be a lot shorter, server costs would be down and generally the place would be a lot less interesting. do you really want to gentrify urban?
* or possibly discussions about gun maintenance in rare unfortunate cases
* or possibly discussions about gun maintenance in rare unfortunate cases
Riklet
procrastinación
Errrr it's a useful and interesting discussion. To keep the thread merely about 'attempted MURDER' is to neglect examining this event and the circumstances around it in the way that it should be - inquisitively and with an aim to address both causes and solutions.
You don't get very far if your only answer to why this happened is because those who did this are 'murderers' or 'evil people' IMO. There have already been some ace posts in this thread wording things better than I can, especially since I have no experience of living in Brixton.
You've already got other teenagers trying to kill those suspected of attempted murder, with one of them stabbed in a supposedly 'unrelated' incident. This is not a situation people can just sit back and disengage from just like that, and the discussion on this thread; 'liberal hand wringing', personal experience, sociological analysis, or whatever, is what makes this site somewhere you can actually learn something. Or should this just be pages and pages of 'they need stringing/locking up....'?
kittyP
Pluviophile
girasol
Addicted to handstands!
Not sure putting them both in the same hospital AND telling everyone where the suspect is being treated is a great idea...
Ms T
Honey-coloured ramparts
I think it was one of the boys who was the intended victim who went to the police.
Totally, the reaction to my comments has somewhat derailed the thread, if anyone still has a problem with my terminology then I'm more than happy for them to take it to pm instead.
I can only apologise if I've inadvertently brought back any distress with those words Gramsci, the situation you mention sounds horrible
I honestly didn't realise that what I said would cause anyone such problems.ericjarvis
give a feck for the feckless
Btw eric I think that most of what you've posted is absolutely spot on, and also put far more eloquently than I could ever manage.
Part of what I'm trying to say is that we actually almost all share the same basic responses to this sort of thing, we just get around to them in a different order and for different times. However a lot of those responses are strongly emotional so it's easy for all of us to overreact.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I can only apologise if I've inadvertently brought back any distress with those words Gramsci, the situation you mention sounds horrible
Thanks for posting this Raverdrew.
EastEnder
Brixton Barnacle
Minnie_the_Minx
someinenhhanding menbag and me ah bollox
Poor girl.
Wonder what pathetic sentences they'll receive
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Bumped because the three accused were convicted today, and will be sentenced (for GBH on the girl and the other bystander, for possession of a firearm with intent to endanger life and for attempted murder on the bloke they were trying to shoot) on the 19th of April. One would hope it will be for a very long time indeed, given how utterly needless this was and how incredibly sad that CCTV footage is.
Thusha (the girl they shot) only gets to be released from hospital next week.
Thusha (the girl they shot) only gets to be released from hospital next week.
Minnie_the_Minx
someinenhhanding menbag and me ah bollox
Bumped because the three accused were convicted today, and will be sentenced (for GBH on the girl and the other bystander, for possession of a firearm with intent to endanger life and for attempted murder on the bloke they were trying to shoot) on the 19th of April. One would hope it will be for a very long time indeed, given how utterly needless this was and how incredibly sad that CCTV footage is.
Thusha (the girl they shot) only gets to be released from hospital next week.
What else will they be charged with? Surely Intent to Endanger Life and Attempted Murder aren't the crimes that relate to the poor girl? Is there not another charge for what they did to her?
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
GBH (and probably in its section 20 form) is the most serious charge that they could have been charged with in relation the injuries they caused to her - as it appears they didnt intend to shoot her or the other bloke - but possession of a firearm w/i to endanger life and attempted murder are both offences that you can (and one would hope should, in this case) get life for. They did get convicted on all counts though, it seems.
I think the maximum for GBH is life,and since they were tooled up I'm guessing it's GBH with intent.It's also possible they'll get hefty and possibly consecutive sentences for the other stuff.I can see them getting 30year tariffs.Mind you IANAL.
Minnie_the_Minx
someinenhhanding menbag and me ah bollox
Minnie_the_Minx
someinenhhanding menbag and me ah bollox
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
Surplus cunts. Hope they don't see the light of day again.
Mrs Magpie
On a bit of break...
One of them had previously been acquitted of the murder of a boy on my street, almost identical circumstances, shooting into a shop and hitting an innocent bystander.
