2004 F1 Championship

[GarfieldLeChat]

Yeah, but it's the way they go so over the top on him, like they did with Hill that makes you end up hating the guy through no fault of his own

if you're an arse i think that clearly yesterday shows the caliber of dirver button is...

 

[Ich bin ein Mod]

I'm not absolving Schumi of all blame at all, read my posts and you'll see that. All I said was the pictures were inconclusive and that Montoya has been guilty of stupidity this season. I put away my Ferrari bias for this and I still think there was a bit of both to blame.

All I'm asking for is some fairness, Schumi has been tarred as a "dirty" driver before, if others do the same then they should be subjected to the same standards

 

[g force]

Yeah I agree and to be fair Monotya has come in for a great deal of criticism (ie the Rubens incident last season), although I think that MS has done similar moves and gotten away with it.

I'm not going to start MS bashing - he's a supreme driver, one of the best ever and most of the tiome he's a joy to watch. This time however I think he risked something becuase he knew he didn't have the car to win and it failed.

And as for Button - I can see why people are annoyed at the ITV crew but they're a british channel and they'll always play up the british drivers. Button has been utter class this season, like Alonso was last year - they both have the luck to be driving good cars.

But this season JB has proven the doubters wrong. I don't think he'll be WDC but that doesn't mean he isn't a good driver! Look at all the so called "natrually fast" drivers like Massa, Sato - speed isn't everything you have to be smooth.

He's developed what was a dog of a car last year that spent most of the season battling Jaguar into a pole sitting, fast car. The results speak for themselves - he forced MS into a mistake in qualifying in San Marino, he drove the bollocks off the car yesterday in what is generally acknowledged as one of the toughest races in the calender.

Criticse by all means, but I think respect is due for performances to date.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I'm not absolving Schumi of all blame at all, read my posts and you'll see that. All I said was the pictures were inconclusive and that Montoya has been guilty of stupidity this season. I put away my Ferrari bias for this and I still think there was a bit of both to blame.

All I'm asking for is some fairness, Schumi has been tarred as a "dirty" driver before, if others do the same then they should be subjected to the same standards

shumi is a dirty driver, speaking as one who knows the renualt team (formerly the benetton team) and jordon (teams shumi drove for) personaly, in fact i'd go so far as to say his first wins of the WDC in the benetton should be scrubbed from the record for all time...

If as is touted he is one of the best and If he is a supreme driver (which he isn't he is cetainly no prost, senna, fangio birkin etc, i might be the new mansell but then that goes to show... if he is the uber driver that is claimed or even half as good he will have know what would happen when he put the ludicroius spurt followed by the heavy breaking, with a car behind him, he will have know that this would mena the driver behind would have to take evasive action and his hope i would think was to cause enough of an incident as to involve alonso/trulli and therefore put him back in the race... knowing that sudden incident would likely catch them out, that was his intent i'm sure of it, speaking as a frequent racng driver it was intentional he would have know the reaction and action breaking that sharply would have caused.

One thing he is regardless of whether he is as great as people say he is, is he is certainly the most calulated/ing driver on the circuit.... he would have worked out what the consiquneces of his acitons were and thought he would have got away with it... he was wrong.

out of intrest had montoya hit the wall due to this action and panged out of the race leaveing shumi to continue the race taken out alonso/trulli as a result of the accident which was the only other alternative of this incident would we all be saying that montoya was a 'dirty driver' ? or would shumi have had the deserved 2 race ban and ferrari fans would have had to suck it down...

 

[mears]

Yes, Montaoya never caused an accident in CART, but then he was enjoying success. In F1, I feel that we are seeing the dark side of JPM, one in which he is resorting to desperate, very stupid and ultimately dangerous manouvers in a vain attempt to claw his way to the top of the pile.

Yes, Schumacher willl win the WDC, but I was willing him on yesterday (instead of usually wanting either Ferrari to win) to get the record for 6 wins in the first 6 races. He probably was somewhat to blame, but Montoya was a very stupid boy.

Michael Andretti and Dario Franchitti might disagree about Juan Pablo never causing any accidents. Montoya could be very agressive in CART. He would squeeze other drivers on high speed ovals as well. Stupid sometimes but he always had plenty of balls.

 

[the B]

Squirting then braking to warm the brakes and tyres is something everyone would have been doing all the time the SC was out.

Montoya shouldn't been in a position or speed to hit Schumacher.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Squirting then braking to warm the brakes and tyres is something everyone would have been doing all the time the SC was out.

Montoya shouldn't been in a position or speed to hit Schumacher.

don't be an arse shumi cut into him to close the door he went into him becuase shumi put his car in the fucking way...

fucking ferriari fans no concept of driving....grrrr

 

[the B]

Car in the way?

Most of the circuit doesn't allow for two cars to go along comfortably side by side - not even close.

 

[red rose]

I think the important point is that montoya has accepted responsibilty and apologised.

I dont think the angle of the camera in the tunnel gives an accurate view of what happened.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Car in the way?

Most of the circuit doesn't allow for two cars to go along comfortably side by side - not even close.

i think you are talking out of your hat have you been to the circuit? the track there in the tunnel is 47 foot wide the same width as a wide road like say park lane it is adiquate to get two f1 cars some 6 1/2 foot no more wide 2 abreast and then have motor cycle out riders...

Ijet...

this still doesn't change the fact that shumi changed direction from the outter edge which due to marbels he had no reason to be to then be up close to the wall the only exucse for this is shutting the door to prevent an over taking manuveur, it's text book defensive driving when racing...

but of course what would a racing diver of nearly 14 years know about that over a ferriari fan...

I think the important point is that montoya has accepted responsibilty and apologised.

in what world did he?

fuck all on the bbc, itv, website and certianly fuck all on planet f1... so unless you have some secret message system, it is clear he isn't accepting responsiblity for it, he has said he was sorry that it happened this is not the same at all...

I dont think the angle of the camera in the tunnel gives an accurate view of what happened.

not for you but as some one who knows the circuit well and also has the driving exerince to know how to go round it i'm afraid it was blatently shumis fault...every step of the way call it how you want as an arm chair general but anyone with racing experince of monte carlo will tell you the same.

shumi fucked up in the tunnel, and the stewards said as much in their report...

http://www.planet-f1.com/news/story_15688.shtml

Schumi braked behind the safety car while coming through the tunnel and was collected by Montoya when the Colombian was forced up alongside the F2004 because of Schumacher’s sudden drop in pace.

fucking ferriari fans arm chair generals

 

[g force]

Some quality quotes here:

BBC story

Montoya said: "Michael braked very hard as he was warming up his brakes and I moved to the right side of the track to avoid him.

"But the gap narrowed and we touched. It has been quite a few times that he has been doing that. He has been lucky and getting away with it.

"I tried to avoid him as much as I could. I put the car against the wall. Where else am I supposed to go? Over the wall, just to let Michael by?"

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

exactly...

i don't think much of montoya tbh he has been the preppy boy blunder since he joined f1 a little to eger and little to keen and not sensible enough but that said he is not the bad driver ferriari fans would have him painted...

tbh if i wasn't fro trulie alonso and to a certain extent button (who still needs to click a bit more with that care but is getting there...) then f1 would be pointless square jaw just needs to fuck off now... leave f1 you myopic fuck... god i hate coultard...

 

[the B]

47ft wide?! You're shitting me right? It's about 2 and bit standard lanes wide. (Might be 47ft wide if you include the bit behind the barrier (and the barrier itself - and the overhand out towards the sea...but I'm assuming that bit is best excluded for this)

The outside of the tunnel area can be scrubbed effectively because it is loaded with rubber marbles/dust/other crap. This is a fairly significant part of the tunnel. Ultimately, there is one optimum line through there and two cars can't be on it at once.

The stewards called it a racing incident - ie. there isn't enough blame one way to inflict a penalty.

Why is Montoya not concentrating/travelling such that he might cause an accident when under SC conditions? Is there an explanation? If he had done this immediately when stewards were on track...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

get off your ferriari soap box and look at the words used in the report,

forced along side

see this suggest that this was not the actions of a driver under control of their vehicle ...

 

[the B]

That's not the actual Stewards' report - Montoya should have been able to reduce his speed enough, he was in the area of the accident that caused the safety car to come out, slowly down in the second half of the tunnel - where it happened - is the a sensible thing to do don't you think?

 

[Ich bin ein Mod]

Let's get off your high horse here for a minute garf and think about this.

If you were travelling down a road and braked suddenly and I ran into the back of you, whose fault is it?

And Schumacher is no more a dirty driver than anybody else in F1, just his incidents have been a lot higher profile than most. And as for stating that you think his first championship win should be struck off the record, do you think that we should take one of Senna's titles off him. After all, he did the same to Prost as Schumi did to Hill.

And as for Schumacher not being a great, you're having a laugh aren't you? Even the most ardent Schumi-hater has to admit that having the most wins, most championships, most points, highest average points scored in a race etc somewhat elevates him to great status.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

that's not the case if i was racing and i was under safety car on a slippery bit of the track in the dark unlit area of the track i would be critically aware of what was behind me, as shumi would have been i would also know that if Montoya came off there was a high likely hood that he would take out trulli and possibly alsono too thus allowing me to 'win', clever tactics but poor race craft...

shumi knew what he was doing, the safety car was coming in that lap it was 3 turns away from pulling off and would have been accelerating to around 60 to 70 mph to allow the drivers a build up to racing speeds, if the race leader (the car which has to control the pack) accelerates all others cars will follow, as this is a sign that this lead in period has started, if that leader then brakes suddenly for no good reason then you take avoiding action such as move to the left of right (which Montoya did) and then you as the car in front use you mirrors to make sure you go in the other direction. good race craft.

shumi shut the door on Montoya thus causing the incident had he not been protective of his line (which he had no need to be as Montoya would have to had dropped back into his place due to safety car conditions) and stuck tot he line he had taken rather than coming across the nose and as a result front end of Montoya, then he wouldn't have been hit... bad race craft.

so lets look again, if you cut some one up and they go into the back of you in race conditions or on the road whose fault is it again the guy behinds?

hope for your sake out on the road that you don't try and use that as an excuse in court... you are liable not to get away with it, believe me...

as for the high horse, well it's the arm chair generals (and funnily enough also the Ferrari fans too) trying to justify what was an appalling piece of driving in order to let their beloved off the hook...

for the record i think that only senna has the dubious honour of having taken as many people out of a race via dirty tactics, least we forget the number of times shumi has punted some one off the track or caused an accident by the systematic bunching/deliberate use of the over braking technique to cause those behind to run out of road...

if shumi was as great a driver, and more importantly had a better sense of sportsmanship then he would have to resort to the by any means necessary school of racing... again bad race craft...

but hey wadda i know it's not like i race cars or anything right....oh wait i do...

do you?

in fact exactly what are your race craft qualifications other than arm chair pundit...????

 

[the B]

Because garf is obviously the master of racing

Let's all bow down now

Montoya was approaching the accident spot that brought out the safety car - why was he travelling at such a high speed without the ability to slow down quickly? Is there any explanation - a good one - at all?

The tunnel was the scene of the accident earlier, there would have been the usual marbles/dust and bits of carbon fibre on the left side of the race track as well as possibly people...this kind of limits the safe width of the tunnel doesn't it garf? Oh wise racer...surely you would agree?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

And as for Schumacher not being a great, you're having a laugh aren't you? Even the most ardent Schumi-hater has to admit that having the most wins, most championships, most points, highest average points scored in a race etc somewhat elevates him to great status.

really well let's look at what he's won after the benetton years shall we becuase there was no way in hell you are ever gonna convice me, or indeed anyone who know the team that the car was legal duing that period... so the juries out on that one wins by good race craft yup i'll agree he has had some blinding races but frankly the last two seasons he hasn't been racing he hasn't had the competition to actually allow him to race...

going round the track and having a reliable and more importantly a much much faster car than anyone else is not racing.

If you were the worst driver in the world but could keep it on the track and you were given a bugatti Veyron and the rest of the pack had high powered vw beetles would it be your great driving skill or your more powerful car that allowed you to win time after time...

shumi has been in many ways the worst thing to have happened to F1 in a long time, he doesn't race when he can coast, only ever put's in the minimum effort to make sure he's at the top of the pile... senna whom he's often compared to would race himself lap after lap breaking speed records lap records etc not shumi can't be arsed...

shumi is much more like fangio, in that he got lucky a lot and didn't necessarily live up to the accolades that a lot of people gave him...

as for would i have stripped senna, well let's look at the history books, he was stripped of the points for his prost incident but allowed to keep the title as prost couldn't win the championship as it was the last race, this hasn't happened to shumi, had senna lived then i doubt that shumi would have had the WC so many times though maybe the last few years as senna would have retired by now...

 

[the B]

The Ferrari was a great car in the 96 season wasn't it Garf

Still managed to win some GPs though...as early as the third GP of the season I think in Argentina?

While I admit Schumacher has a rather 'interesting'/dodgy/unsportsman relationship with his team mates at Ferrari - they've all been obviously slower than him...by some margin.


Was the Ferrari the best car on the grid in 2000 and 2001?

In the 1995 season, did Schumacher only just win that title? Didn't look too close to me...

If Schumacher doesn't go for fast laps? Why has he got the highest number of fastest laps recorded during a grand prix compared to any other driver by some way...?

I'm not sure he's better than Senna, I think they are of different 'eras' and any comparison is just speculative guff really...they are both great drivers in my opinion.

 

[Ich bin ein Mod]

Garf, calm down ffs! I'm sorry that I'm not some kind of uber racing god, I was just calling things as I saw them. Your constant resort to labelling me as an "arm chair general" is getting rather boring. Or am I not allowed to comment on anything: no comments on films as I'm not a director, no comments on footballers as I'm not a pro, no comments on books as I'm not a writer. Get a grip.

What are James Allan's race craft qualifications come to think of that?

And please stop twisting my words, its the mark of someone who is resorting to "win at all costs". i didn't sya anything about cutting someone up, maybe it wasn't the best analogy but hey whatever.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Because garf is obviously the master of racing

Let's all bow down now

shut up you cretin you racing knowlege is arm chair pundit boy?

i'm giving an opinion based on years of race craft and experince yours is based on .... oh that's right the telly... good one

Montoya was approaching the accident spot that brought out the safety car - why was he travelling at such a high speed without the ability to slow down quickly? Is there any explanation - a good one - at all?

yes as i have explained above shall we repeat the racing lesson for those of us who have reading difficulites...

if the race leader (the car which has to control the pack) accelerates all others cars will follow, as this is a sign that this lead in period has started,

The tunnel was the scene of the accident earlier, there would have been the usual marbles/dust and bits of carbon fibre on the left side of the race track as well as possibly people...this kind of limits the safe width of the tunnel doesn't it garf? Oh wise racer...surely you would agree

true enough except for one valuable point you seem to forget the safety car was coming in that lap therefore the knew the track was clear otherwise the safety car, you know the car what is designed to limit the racing speeds to a duh! safe limit in the event of an incident, was being removed...

Jesus b do you even think before you post or is it just the effervescent tide of illogical crap that you cannot stem that flows from your keyboard in one never ending, and frankly ludicrous monologue???

oh wise arm chair pundit???

 

[Ich bin ein Mod]

shumi has been in many ways the worst thing to have happened to F1 in a long time, he doesn't race when he can coast, only ever put's in the minimum effort to make sure he's at the top of the pile... senna whom he's often compared to would race himself lap after lap breaking speed records lap records etc not shumi can't be arsed...

Why is he at fault because there's no competition?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Garf, calm down ffs! I'm sorry that I'm not some kind of uber racing god, I was just calling things as I saw them. Your constant resort to labelling me as an "arm chair general" is getting rather boring. Or am I not allowed to comment on anything: no comments on films as I'm not a director, no comments on footballers as I'm not a pro, no comments on books as I'm not a writer. Get a grip.

What are James Allan's race craft qualifications come to think of that?

And please stop twisting my words, its the mark of someone who is resorting to "win at all costs". i didn't sya anything about cutting someone up, maybe it wasn't the best analogy but hey whatever.

nah I'm just saying this constant defence of what was a very stoopid error of judgement (or as i suspect a deliberate attempt to cause Montoya to take out Alonso) back fired on shumi and the oh but he's the greatest driver int he world crap seems to blind a lot of people in to saying it can't have been shumi who was at fault that dastardly Montoya he's the bad un, when it simply isn't the case ...

as for james allen very little and it shows...

as for twisting your words i did nothing of the sort i maintain that shumi will do whatever it takes to win at any cost, (you don't persuade one of the most historic teams in the f1 series to change things if you aren't...)

tbh I'm even more annoyed because i don' think that Montoya is a great driver either just an average cart driver, who got lucky... (but the critic of him here is some what shumi flag waving tbh)

 

[the B]

Why does a backmarker - a lapped car - need to be chasing after the leader? To unlap himself? Point? Is there any? Did Montoya think he could reasonably overtake Schumacher, race all the way around the race track in 22 laps I think and then overtake for position?

Safety car coming in doesn't mean the track has no hazards. You can never be entirely sure every little flake of carbon fibre has been removed - the rubber marbles from grained tyres would still be there...

In general, the tunnel isn't a slippery part of the Monaco circuit usually...the rubber tends to get laid down there in quite well because it's the one part of the track where aeros will affect the tyres to get rubber down best. Also, it being a high speed corner, mechanical forces also get some rubber down.

Because you have done some racing in cars remotely similar to F1 cars your opinion just has to be correct over mine every time does it?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Why is he at fault because there's no competition?

it's not that theres not competition driver wise it's that the other manufacturers cannot compete on a sponsor ship level and thus a finances level, not directly shumis fault no but having the clout of the previous ill gotten gains from the 'won by cheating' world championships under his belt certainly help secure that cash..

 

[Ich bin ein Mod]

Actually I have to back the B up a bit on this one garf, if not quite so cheekily. I find it a bit condescending having my opinion ridiculed as I'm not one of the privileged few who have had the chance to race. By your reasoning, a vast majority of the people who watch F1 should have absolutely no opinion on who is at fault at an accident. Which I find somewhat, hmm ... elitest

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Why does a backmarker - a lapped car - need to be chasing after the leader? To unlap himself? Point? Is there any? Did Montoya think he could reasonably overtake Schumacher, race all the way around the race track in 22 laps I think and then overtake for position?

gain what postition ?

under safety car rules there is not over taking allowed which allows the over taker to gain from the manoeuvre what the fuck are you chatting??

Safety car coming in doesn't mean the track has no hazards. You can never be entirely sure every little flake of carbon fibre has been removed - the rubber marbles from grained tyres would still be there...

pulling in the safty car means that the track is of a condition where 'racing' can continue, of course you are not going to pick up every little shard you never do but all the main pieces will be picked up in certain cases they even hoover with the fucking track cleaner cart things if there is a need and an opening in the barriers to get one on and off the track in time...

again you simply have no clue...

In general, the tunnel isn't a slippery part of the Monaco circuit usually...the rubber tends to get laid down there in quite well because it's the one part of the track where aeros will affect the tyres to get rubber down best. Also, it being a high speed corner, mechanical forces also get some rubber down.

crap of the racing line it is one of the worst places for adhesion for several reasons one it's width, two it covered thus making the debris lie around far more than on more exposed and winder areas of the track and three because it is covered there is a distinct heat difference in the temperature of the track which cools the tyres thus providing less adhesion (also it actually dips before cresting ever so slightly in the middle before going down hill at a far greater angle than is shown on TV the chicane at the bottom is actually tighter as a result of the down hill forward momentum which is why they cut back the wall after Alexander wursts accident in the tunnel there a few years ago...)

Because you have done some racing in cars remotely similar to F1 cars your opinion just has to be correct over mine every time does it

erm yes actually f3, zip cart, test drive the Bentley gt, whole host of vintage cars, classics and so on as well as Indy cars from the 1960's to the 1980's and also driven 2 different f1 cars the Jordan 2 years ago and last years Benetton at the end of last years season... all at racing speeds all with great care (none of them have been mine) all aside from the Jordan which was jerky as fuck (very unbalanced chassis) were incredible to drive, and very quick... all on a verity of circuits.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Actually I have to back the B up a bit on this one garf, if not quite so cheekily. I find it a bit condescending having my opinion ridiculed as I'm not one of the privileged few who have had the chance to race. By your reasoning, a vast majority of the people who watch F1 should have absolutely no opinion on who is at fault at an accident. Which I find somewhat, hmm ... elitest

that's not what I'm saying, I'm saying that i really don't like the attitude portrayed here of well Montoya was wrong and shumi was right when that wasn't the case, being star struck is just as elitist as you feel i am being, from a racing perspective I'm afraid shumi was in the wrong. as a fan that might been seen in a different light so be it...

ridiculing those who have knowledge on the sport from a technical POV as it doesn't fit the fan boy mentality is also elietist...


btw i reckon button will break his duck next weekend...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Because you have done some racing in cars remotely similar to F1 cars your opinion just has to be correct over mine every time does it?

at the end of the day i do it regularly enough to know good an bad race craft on the track how you should race to have care and attention for others on the track and how to win at all costs this has bugger all to do with being right it's simple fact, your opinion is ill informed based on what can only be described as a pundit's knowledge, mine is based on the experience of racing and having to learn how to control a car out on the track.

I'll dare say there are few areas that your knowledge of things worldly wouldn't beat me hands down b but about racing you ain't even gonna come close. soz