2004 F1 Championship

[the B]

Why was Montoya chasing Schumacher? Was there any point staying 'close' to him?

If Schumacher was speeding up so as to make a break from the pack - why is Montoya going to chase him down closely? Why does Montoya need to be travelling fast enough and close with the SC out to be able to overtake him (when he's not allowed to do so) - that's the sodding point...Montoya shouldn't have been where he was at the speed he was...

Surely with that incredible list of racing achievements you can try and tell us what Montoya was doing - after all - you told us what Michael was doing...even though I don't think Michael is dumb enough to ignore the principle of the conservation of momentum in that 'plan' he apparently had...maybe you missed it out...actually, you're the genius, you can't have missed it out right?

I still stand by the suggestion that the tunnel at Monaco is not wide enough for two F1 cars to safely driver through - or want to drive through.

The tunnel is a confined environment with lots of fast objects passing through it punching 'holes' in the air. It gets fairly windy actually...I wasn't talking about off the racing line anyway so I don't quite get your point...

Wurz's accident had not much to do with the wall moving back really - it's not like Wurz was going to recover the car in that incident given that he left the tunnel without front wheels in that accident...

 

[Ich bin ein Mod]

that's not what I'm saying, I'm saying that i really don't like the attitude portrayed here of well Montoya was wrong and shumi was right when that wasn't the case, being star struck is just as elitist as you feel i am being, from a racing perspective I'm afraid shumi was in the wrong. as a fan that might been seen in a different light so be it...

ridiculing those who have knowledge on the sport from a technical POV as it doesn't fit the fan boy mentality is also elietist

Where exactly have I ridiculed you? The pervading attitude (from me at least,and the coverage, and the stewards) is that Schumi was in the wrong, as was Montoya.

Maybe I'm just tired now but seeing as how your first comment on this topic was "na your chatting bollocks" I'm a bit tetchy. Perhaps a line should be drawn under this incident before this thread degenerats into an all-out mudslinging match (by some standards it already has)

(As for the Senna Prost thing though, didn't Senna drive into Prost so that Prost couldn't win the championship. Therefore although Senna was stripped of his points, Prost lost out as he didn't score any points at the last race as a direct result of Senna's actions. Wheras if Prost had gone on to win and Senna not scored, Prost would have been champion? Or am I remembering it wrongly?)

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Why was Montoya chasing Schumacher? Was there any point staying 'close' to him?

If Schumacher was speeding up so as to make a break from the pack - why is Montoya going to chase him down closely? Why does Montoya need to be travelling fast enough and close with the SC out to be able to overtake him (when he's not allowed to do so) - that's the sodding point...Montoya shouldn't have been where he was at the speed he was...

Surely with that incredible list of racing achievements you can try and tell us what Montoya was doing - after all - you told us what Michael was doing...even though I don't think Michael is dumb enough to ignore the principle of the conservation of momentum in that 'plan' he apparently had...maybe you missed it out...actually, you're the genius, you can't have missed it out right?

shumi knew what he was doing, the safety car was coming in that lap it was 3 turns away from pulling off and would have been accelerating to around 60 to 70 mph to allow the drivers a build up to racing speeds, if the race leader (the car which has to control the pack) accelerates all others cars will follow, as this is a sign that this lead in period has started, if that leader then brakes suddenly for no good reason then you take avoiding action such as move to the left of right (which Montoya did) and then you as the car in front use you mirrors to make sure you go in the other direction.

what part of this do you not understand b?

is it the explaintion part or the fact that it answers you question

I still stand by the suggestion that the tunnel at Monaco is not wide enough for two F1 cars to safely driver through - or want to drive through.

then your are wrong...

The tunnel is a confined environment with lots of fast objects passing through it punching 'holes' in the air. It gets fairly windy actually...I wasn't talking about off the racing line anyway so I don't quite get your point...

on the racing line no where else the aero dynamics of the cars mean they 'suck' most of the air to them thus creating that thing they call down force....

Wurz's accident had not much to do with the wall moving back really - it's not like Wurz was going to recover the car in that incident given that he left the tunnel without front wheels in that accident...

the wall was moved back due to wursts accident and the fact he spear headed it with his car it didn't physically move when he hit it it was removed and the track altered as a result of his accident, i dare say by diggers and workmen...

edited for clarity...

 

[the B]

On the Senna/Prost thing - Senna punted Prost off at Casino Triangle in 1989. He rejoined and won but got DQed. Prost won the title. Next year, back at Suzuka, Senna punted Prost off again but didn't get DQed and so won the title.

 

[Ich bin ein Mod]

what part of this do you not understand b?

The fact that it was 4 corners away from pulling off

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Where exactly have I ridiculed you? The pervading attitude (from me at least,and the coverage, and the stewards) is that Schumi was in the wrong, as was Montoya.

Maybe I'm just tired now but seeing as how your first comment on this topic was "na your chatting bollocks" I'm a bit tetchy. Perhaps a line should be drawn under this incident before this thread degenerats into an all-out mudslinging match (by some standards it already has)

(As for the Senna Prost thing though, didn't Senna drive into Prost so that Prost couldn't win the championship. Therefore although Senna was stripped of his points, Prost lost out as he didn't score any points at the last race as a direct result of Senna's actions. Wheras if Prost had gone on to win and Senna not scored, Prost would have been champion? Or am I remembering it wrongly?)

fair enough i apologise the nah it was bollocks was light hearted before eltechnico the b got all nonsense...

yes he was stripped of the points for the race as a result but as it was the final race it made no odds prost could come back as it were as they had run out of season...

 

[the B]

The SC was too close to Schumacher for him to start going off at racing speeds, Montoya should have known this and therefore known that Schumacher was not building up speed so as to suggest the SC was 'out of the equation' but to warm brakes/tyres.

The pit lane entrance is a long way from the tunnel...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

The fact that it was 4 corners away from pulling off

nope 3

the pits the safety car pulls into the pits

it doesn't go round the last corner or else they would have to complete a further lap under the safety car...

 

[Ich bin ein Mod]

The chicane at the exit from tunnel
The turn at the end of that straight
Another chicane
the penultimate corner

 

[the B]

Garf - are you suggesting there's no wind effected created by an F1 car as it moves through the tunnel?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

The SC was too close to Schumacher for him to start going off at racing speeds, Montoya should have known this and therefore known that Schumacher was not building up speed so as to suggest the SC was 'out of the equation' but to warm brakes/tyres.

The pit lane entrance is a long way from the tunnel...

is there an online link to the footage you'll see that there is at least a car and half worth of distance from the safety car and shumi more than enough distance with f1 braking speeds...

no fly wheel on the engines means that a release of the foot from the accelerator reduces speed dramatically even with out breaking it would be the equivalent of ripping the engine out of a road car at speed....

 

[the B]

3 corners (depending on how you define a corner maybe?)

Chicane, swimming pool, Rascas - turns in before Anthony Nogues.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

The chicane at the exit from tunnel
The turn at the end of that straight
Another chicane
the penultimate corner

doesn't go round the penultimate corner as it goes into the pits...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

3 corners (depending on how you define a corner maybe?)

Chicane, swimming pool, Rascas - turns in before Anthony Nogues.

the bend isn't really a corner in any real sense you can go through it straight looks bent on the map but isn't actually a corner as such

 

[the B]

You think between the period of the tunnel and the SC turning in...an F1 car couldn't make the distance of 1.5 F1 cars over the SC?

 

[Ich bin ein Mod]

3 corners (depending on how you define a corner maybe?)

Chicane, swimming pool, Rascas - turns in before Anthony Nogues.

Looks like 4 to me, but as you say depends on how you define a corner.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter, was only meant as a light-hearted diversion form us all screaming at each other calling folk idiots

and the pic doesn't work anyway! ach well, I'm off to bed before I prove that Silverstone really is shit

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Garf - are you suggesting there's no wind effected created by an F1 car as it moves through the tunnel?

some but not enough to clear the debris, i was suggesting that the open areas of the track are subject to climatic winds created by the elements the hair pin for instance is very windy thus is more likely to be clearer of debris than inside the tunnel

 

[the B]

The defintion of a corner is pretty murky in the F1 world afaik...Bahrain has a variable number of corners depending on which team you are with...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Looks like 4 to me, but as you say depends on how you define a corner.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter, was only meant as a light-hearted diversion form us all screaming at each other calling folk idiots

and the pic doesn't work anyway! ach well, I'm off to bed before I prove that Silverstone really is shit

surely that's just a light hearted diversion from the racing ??

after all it's a forgone conclusion that shumi will be out for montoya blood next race and that Ferrari will prolly win again this year...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

The defintion of a corner is pretty murky in the F1 world afaik...Bahrain has a variable number of corners depending on which team you are with...

if you can drive through it straight it ain't a corner

 

[Ich bin ein Mod]

And now the pic works!

Anyway, i still maintain that the car would go round the penultimate corner as it leads into the pit lane entrance

 

[the B]

Still looks like 3 corners on that map...when you said 4 I thought you might still be including the tunnel...carbon fibre is pretty light - the shards would weigh next to nothing and I reckon they'd move in fairly light wind.

Sadly, I don't have my own wind tunnel of carbon fibre shards to test this with in a physics experiment sort of sense.

 

[the B]

There are some straights you don't go 'straight' on to avoid bumps on the track or you drift across the track to line up for the following corner - thinking of Monza before the last corner (Paribolica?)

There are many others I think...

And there is definately some 'indecision' over how many corners there are in Bahrain.

 

[Ich bin ein Mod]

Righty, here's where I conclusively prove I'm wrong

The two red lines are the position of the sc and the pit entry (roughly)

4 corners, unless I'm just really stupid. I mean really really stupid

 

[Wowbagger]

Here's a better plan.

Nouvelle Chicane, Tabac, the two Piscine chicanes (quick left-right, short straight, arsehole right-left), Rascasse, pits before Anthony Noghes. That's five.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

http://www.formula1.com/race/circuitmap/719.html

3 corners 3 chiccaines 4 if you include the swimming pool complex as a corner not as a chiccanine...to clarify tradtitionaly the swimming pool was just a corner... not a chiccaine...

Nurburgring then?

shumi barrachello then button?

or will there be further upset?

will jaguaer have foudn the missing diamonds?

will max moseley insist that the new teams which he want's introduced into F1 by next season include skoda (just kidding )?

 

[the B]

Provided Montoya doesn't punt Schumacher off like last year...I can see Schumacher winning it...

I think Jaguar recovered the diamond off Klien's car...and the next new team will probably be Arden. Roman Abramovich has long been thought of as someone who would be interested in attempt to strengthen the position of a Moscow GP but hopes(?) faded after he bought up Chelsea though he was at Monaco over the weekend...and Mosley reckons he might be able to reduce the $40 million entry fee for an F1 team which might help...(not a fan of Mosley)

 

[g force]

Yep seems Arden are wanting to join and Mad Max has said the bond can be dropped so long as teams can provide a 5 year plan - apparently the bond only exists so there aren't lots of slow teams in it one year then buggering off - not sure i entirely believe that!

I think a couple of F3/3000 teams stepping up would be great get soem Dallara's in there, maybe SuperNova be a good place for people like Panis and DC who don't want to end their careers to end to help develop a new car.

If the Audi group enter i'd expect it to be with Audi badging - Skoda are in the WRC and Audi is the groups 'prestige' brand.

Hmmm..."European" GP - I think it will be Schumacher, Button, Trulli. I can't see the Williams liking this track. Think Renault will be quick, BAR will be well on the pace, maybe a dark horse in Sauber - the car seems to be getting better.

Did Jag find the diamond? As of yesterday it was still missing....

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Yep seems Arden are wanting to join and Mad Max has said the bond can be dropped so long as teams can provide a 5 year plan - apparently the bond only exists so there aren't lots of slow teams in it one year then buggering off - not sure i entirely believe that!

I think a couple of F3/3000 teams stepping up would be great get soem Dallara's in there, maybe SuperNova be a good place for people like Panis and DC who don't want to end their careers to end to help develop a new car.

If the Audi group enter i'd expect it to be with Audi badging - Skoda are in the WRC and Audi is the groups 'prestige' brand.

Hmmm..."European" GP - I think it will be Schumacher, Button, Trulli. I can't see the Williams liking this track. Think Renault will be quick, BAR will be well on the pace, maybe a dark horse in Sauber - the car seems to be getting better.

Did Jag find the diamond? As of yesterday it was still missing....

can't see that audi would enter they have pulled out of all competative racing atm they were touting a vw f1 car until the bentley team had it's plug pulled they have now sold the ex toms racing factory where there cars were made and the principal director and designers of rtn (race technologies norfolk) have now gone on to WTC can't see it myself. certainly hasn't been touted as such...

as for max you know who his dad was hint it's in the last name think of our favourate newpapers and their infamous 1932 headline....

 

[the B]

Silverstone to have a GP until 2006: http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/040525/4/40zb.html

More copse, maggot, becketts, chapel, hanger straight, stowe, vale, club, abbey, farm , bridge, priory, broodlands, luffield, woodcote...*yawns*

I don't tend to find the British GP at Silverstone that good anyway. Unless it rains