1914-18 : The Great Slaughter - Challenging A Year Of Myth Making.

[phildwyer]

There have been a number of genocides in the world's history: Darfur and Rwanda spring immediately to mind.

Okay. So now we have... what... five genocides so far? Aren't you forgetting the British in Matabeleland?

By your criteria, history would show literally thousands of genocides.

I think that devalues the term. I think history has only seen one genocide.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The Stormfront website states that the Obersalzberg speech is a fake.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Okay. So now we have... what... five genocides so far? Aren't you forgetting the British in Matabeleland?

By your criteria, history would show literally thousands of genocides.

I think that devalues the term. I think history has only seen one genocide.

The genocide committed against the aboriginal peoples of the United States doesn't qualify, then?

Nor the English Genocide in Ireland?

 

[phildwyer]

1 Does not excuse genocide.
2 As above and The Ottoman massacres was far larger in number and range.
3 Under the Orders and direction of the Ottoman Authorities
4 Turkey is the direct Descendant of the Ottoman Empire
5 With the Turks in charge
6 No more than blaming the Uk for the crimes of the Empire.

1. Not applicable, genocide did not take place.
2. Only because they won the war.
3. Yes.
4. No. The Turkish Republic was born out of armed struggle against the Ottoman Empire.
5. Complicated. Many races participated in Ottoman government. The mother of the Sultan was always Greek.
6. Agreed.

 

[phildwyer]

The Stormfront website states that the Obersalzberg speech is a fake.

It is a fake.

Do you believe Goring danced on the table "like a wild man?"

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

1 Does not excuse genocide.
2 As above and The Ottoman massacres was far larger in number and range.
3 Under the Orders and direction of the Ottoman Authorities
4 Turkey is the direct Descendant of the Ottoman Empire
5 With the Turks in charge
6 No more than blaming the Uk for the crimes of the Empire.

The genocide of the Armenians was carried out by the Ottoman Empire.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

It is a fake.

Do you believe Goring danced on the table "like a wild man?"

You haven't mentioned Generalplan Ost.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The principal victims killed in Auchwitz prior to 1942, were Polish citizens of whatever faith. The focus on Jews there ramped up in 1941/42

 

[phildwyer]

You haven't mentioned Generalplan Ost.

Provide something other than a crude forgery to document it and I will.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Phil: perhaps you don't consider the mass killings of Africans for ethnic/tribal/political reasons, to be of sufficient import to be called 'genocide'?

 

[phildwyer]

The genocide of the Armenians was carried out by the Ottoman Empire.

Massacres of Armenians were carried out, mainly by Kurds, during a chaotic, bloody and bitter war in which all sides massacred civilians.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Provide something other than a crude forgery to document it and I will.

I'd have assumed you were well-read enough to have known about it already. If you'd like direction to reference-work books, I'd be happy to oblige.

 

[phildwyer]

Phil: perhaps you don't consider the mass killings of Africans for ethnic/tribal/political reasons, to be of sufficient import to be called 'genocide'?

OK, let's be constructive here, and see if we can really get somewhere.

Obviously we need to define "genocide."

You first?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Massacres of Armenians were carried out, mainly by Kurds, during a chaotic, bloody and bitter war in which all sides massacred civilians.

The Armenians were subjected to a genocide by the Ottomans.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

OK, let's be constructive here, and see if we can really get somewhere.

Obviously we need to define "genocide."

You first?

You're the one who doesn't consider what happened in Rwanda to be a genocide. That leads me to believe that you have an idiosyncratic definition for the term. That being the case: you first.

 

[Pickman's model]

OK, let's be constructive here, and see if we can really get somewhere.

Obviously we need to define "genocide."

You first?

you think lemkin fucked it up?

 

[likesfish]

Bollocks rampaging bands massacaring villages one thing
http://www.armenian-genocide.org/Education.56/current_category.117/resourceguide_detail.html

Trains ferrys and plans is not a chaotic war its delibrate .

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Bollocks rampaging bands massacaring villages one thing
http://www.armenian-genocide.org/Education.56/current_category.117/resourceguide_detail.html

Trains ferrys and plans is not a chaotic war its delibrate .

Pretty much everyone in the world besides Phil and the Turks know it was a genocide. [I think the Turks know too, but just won't admit it].

 

[phildwyer]

You're the one who doesn't consider what happened in Rwanda to be a genocide. That leads me to believe that you have an idiosyncratic definition for the term. That being the case: you first.

Alright.

Here's the difference.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you are correct, and it was Hitler's intention to wipe out every Pole in Poland, as well as every Jew.

(Just to be clear: I don't think JC3 is correct in the above. But for the sake of argument...)

Hitler would not also have wanted, far less attempted, to wipe out the Polish population of, say, New York.

But Hitler did also want to wipe out the Jewish population of New York, and indeed of everywhere else.

That is the difference between massacre and genocide. There has only been one genocide.

 

[phildwyer]

you think lemkin fucked it up?

Silence, fool.

There is no place for you in this discussion.

 

[Pickman's model]

Silence, fool.

There is no place for you in this discussion.

so on your own terms you're a liar

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Alright.

Here's the difference.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you are correct, and it was Hitler's intention to wipe out every Pole in Poland, as well as every Jew.

(Just to be clear: I don't think JC3 is correct in the above. But for the sake of argument...)

Hitler would not also have wanted, far less attempted, to wipe out the Polish population of, say, New York.

But Hitler did also want to wipe out the Jewish population of New York, and indeed of everywhere else.

That is the difference between massacre and genocide. There has only been one genocide.

I think it's a distinction without a difference.

Hitler's rhetoric was such that the conclusion could be drawn that, given the chance, he would have wiped out world jewry. But it's arguable that Hitler was a Continental/European thinker, and his plans for the Reich centered around Europe. As such, his focus was on solving 'the jewish problem', as the Nazis called it, within the borders of what would be the Reich. That's why earlier solutions included the idea of shipping jews to Madagascar.

The Poles also presented a problem, to Hitler's thinking [along with other Slavs in other areas] - in that they were occupying lands intended for Grossdeutschland, and inhabitation by Aryans. As such, the solution for the 'Slavic problem' was a similar one - elimination.

 

[frogwoman]

Not sure darfur was genocide, but Rwanda definitely was.

Alright.

Here's the difference.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you are correct, and it was Hitler's intention to wipe out every Pole in Poland, as well as every Jew.

(Just to be clear: I don't think JC3 is correct in the above. But for the sake of argument...)

Hitler would not also have wanted, far less attempted, to wipe out the Polish population of, say, New York.

But Hitler did also want to wipe out the Jewish population of New York, and indeed of everywhere else.

That is the difference between massacre and genocide. There has only been one genocide.

he WANTED to but didn't suceed thank god. and wiping out every polish person in poland (which fair enough I don't think he wanted to do) would be genocide ffs!

Where are you getting that definition?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Hitler was also interested in the idea of shipping jews to Siberia; but that idea fell through with the failure of Barbarossa.

 

[frogwoman]

how could killing everyone of a certain ethnic group in a country not be genocide? Like if the tories turned round tomorrow and started killing all romanians in the country that would be genocide wouldn't it? how could it not be?

 

[phildwyer]

Where are you getting that definition?

It fell off the back of a lorry.

Seriously: I've given my definition. Now it is for those who believe I am wrong to offer an alternative. Then we can decide which is better. And then we will have a criterion for determining the Armenian question.

 

[phildwyer]

Seriously: I've given my definition.

Actually I haven't.

So here it is. Genocide is the attempt to exterminate an ethnic or racial group.

By "exterminate" I mean: kill every member of that group in the world, so that the group no longer exists. Not for any strategic reason or practical advantage (such as Lebensraum) but simply because they belong to that group.

There has only been one genocide.

 

[frogwoman]

Actually I haven't.

So here it is. Genocide is the attempt to exterminate an ethnic or racial group.

By "exterminate" I mean: kill every member of that group in the world, so that the group no longer exists. Not for any strategic reason or practical advantage (such as Lebensraum) but simply because they belong to that group.

There has only been one genocide.

I thought that the definition of genocide was the attempt to kill everyone of a certain ethnic group in a country

 

[frogwoman]

sorry if this post is in bad taste, but if the government started killing all romanians and bulgarians living in the country, that would be genocide. According to your definition if they were doing that, and also dropped a nuclear bomb on romania and bulgaria in order to try and kill everyone it still wouldn't be genocide because they didn't want to kill all the romanians in say Texas

but it obviously would be

 

[phildwyer]

I thought that the definition of genocide was the attempt to kill everyone of a certain ethnic group in a country

By that definition, not even the Jewish Holocaust would be genocide.