1914-18 : The Great Slaughter - Challenging A Year Of Myth Making.

[phildwyer]

I think it says something that the turks are still trying to deny bad things happened or excuse them.

Nobody (to my knowledge) is doing either. "The Turks" certainly are not. They deny it was genocide, quite rightly.

Over a million dead armenians and how many dead turks phil?

Around 15 (fifteen) million. Why do you ask?

 

[phildwyer]

They did fight back. They did kill German troops, they did blow up bridges etc, some of them resisted the Nazis until the end. It's also seriously fucking offensive to say that they just let the Nazis do it to them.

Then it's a good job that I never said they didn't fight back, or any of the other rubbish that you wrongly suggest I said here.

 

[phildwyer]

Interesting contribution to the argument here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Jewish_Americans#World_War_II

How is that a contribution to the argument?

It seems completely irrelevant to me. Please explain its relevance.

 

[phildwyer]

the Armenian Genocide

You should stop using this phrase, because you cannot defend it.

 

[frogwoman]

gonna deal with post #596?

 

[phildwyer]

It's unique because it was industrialised, and because the nazis wanted to kill every jew in the world, in fact as part of their peace deals with various countries they asked for jews to be handed over afaik, they wanted their allies like japan to start on it as well, but that's not the same as saying that there haven't been other genocides ffs! can you stop saying this? there are cultures that were completely destroyed by colonialism etc, like the native americans, how is that not genocide, of course it fucking is!

is my synagogue's website anti-semitic then in its holocaust memorial when it includes a section about rwanda?? of course not! It's saying that other events need to be remembered and commemorated!

coming from someone who goes on all the time about usury as well ffs, not funny phil

I'll pass over your last line in silence, apart from reminding you to think before you type.

I take it you're aware of Israel's position on this, and of the reasons for that position?

Here's a member of the Knesset talking. I don't endorse what he says, but it will show you just how odd your interpretation is:

"I find it is deeply offensive, and even blasphemous to compare the Holocaust of European Jewry during the Second World War with the mass extermination of the Armenian people during the First World War. Jews were killed because they were Jews, but Armenians provoked Turkey and should blame themselves."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide_recognition#Position_of_Israel

 

[phildwyer]

gonna deal with post #596?

Of course. You don't have to remind me. On this subject I will always deal with everyone's posts.

 

[frogwoman]

I'll pass over your last line in silence, apart from reminding you to think before you type.

I takes it you're aware of Israel's position on this, and of the reasons for that position?

Here's a member of the Knesset talking. I don't endorse what he says, but it will show you just how odd your interpretation is:

"I find it is deeply offensive, and even blasphemous to compare the Holocaust of European Jewry during the Second World War with the mass extermination of the Armenian people during the First World War. Jews were killed because they were Jews, but Armenians provoked Turkey and should blame themselves."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide_recognition#Position_of_Israel

the Iraeli government has no reason for a good diplomatic relationship with turkey, not at all

also the german government did go on and on about the jews provoking them . "jews declare war on germany!!" headlines in 1933 etc

 

[Pickman's model]

Of course. You don't have to remind me. On this subject I will always deal with everyone's posts.

and what a disappointment that is

 

[frogwoman]

Nazi propaganda wouldn't have worked if they'd have been like "yeah well we're evil thats why we have skulls on our helmets, we just hate jews for no reason, deal with it"

they built on stereotypes that had been built up for generations, (including usury!) they added mythical "provocations" like the stabs in the back of november 1918, they also used real examples of jews fighting back without context (of being persecuted) to bolster up their arguments, like that guy who shot the nazi diplomat "triggering off" krystallnacht

i don't know much about the armenian genocide but presumably the turkish gov't used provocations real and imagined to justify that as well - certainly happened in rwanda

 

[frogwoman]

I'll pass over your last line in silence, apart from reminding you to think before you type.

I take it you're aware of Israel's position on this, and of the reasons for that position?

Here's a member of the Knesset talking. I don't endorse what he says, but it will show you just how odd your interpretation is:

"I find it is deeply offensive, and even blasphemous to compare the Holocaust of European Jewry during the Second World War with the mass extermination of the Armenian people during the First World War. Jews were killed because they were Jews, but Armenians provoked Turkey and should blame themselves."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide_recognition#Position_of_Israel

Also my interpretation is not odd, Hitler himself said when talking about the jews "who will remember the armenians"

In my experience at religious type events its often the case that other genocides are talked about in the context of "well remember its not just about us and because of what happened we have to make sure that they are never forgotten and that it doesn't happen again to someone else"

which is a better interpretation than "yeah well they asked for it, now how about those trade deals Tayyip"

 

[butchersapron]

Report on the first two meetings of the Remembering the Real World War 1 group. Cooking up nicely. Found out last night that my mate wrote that Blackadder thing posted earlier in the thread, and last night we managed to sneak this fantastic film onto a local film festival program and we'll be looking to use that to open up some debate about the issues in that article.

 

[phildwyer]

provocations real and imagined

The difference is that the Turks used real provocations, while the Germans used imagined provocations.

Which is quite an important difference.

 

[CNT36]

Yes, I know.

The part of your claim that you need to justify is your assertion that it was in Turkey that these German officers learned the killing techniques that they later applied in the Jewish Holocaust.

In your own time please.

Probably be late Thursday or Friday when I get home and can look at the books.

 

[stowpirate]

Around 15 (fifteen) million. Why do you ask?

Not sure those figures you have are correct? Wikipedia states 5 million and that includes the 1.5 Armenian genocide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_casualties_of_World_War_I

I get a figure of approx. 2.75 million civillians dead? Another list here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties#Casualties_by_1914_borders

It is horrible thinking about the total waste of life in both World Wars.

 

[Pickman's model]

Around 15 (fifteen) million. Why do you ask?

source pls

 

[frogwoman]

Why would you pick the holocaust as a topic to wind people up about? Like how is it funny?

Do you know who else finds the holocaust funny? That's right.

FFS

 

[Pickman's model]

Why would you pick the holocaust as a topic to wind people up about? Like how is it funny?

Do you know who else finds the holocaust funny? That's right.

and dwyer did say he found some fascist ideas useful.

 

[phildwyer]

Not sure those figures you have are correct?

For which war?

In Turkey, what we call the "first world war" lasted 10 years (1912-1922).

Or do you mean only the Turkish-Armenian War of 1920? Casualty estimates are approximately even iirc--under a million on each side though.

Or do you mean the Russo-Turkish War of 1878, which was notable for the many massacres of Turks committed by Armenian units of the Russian Army?

My point--surely indisputable--is that this is an extremely complicated subject, on which those who are under-informed should not venture to speak lightly, because of the possibility of giving serious offence without understanding why.

 

[phildwyer]

and dwyer did say he found some fascist ideas useful.

You have the mentality of Yagoda. You fucking freak.

 

[stowpirate]

Or do you mean only the Turkish-Armenian War of 1920? Casualty estimates are approximately even iirc--under a million on each side though.

My point--surely indisputable--is that this is an extremely complicated subject, on which those who are under-informed should not venture to speak lightly, because of the possibility of giving serious offence without understanding why.

I don't know why this has turned into a slanging match? Anyway Total Ottoman population at time of most peoples understanding of WW1 was possibly 21 million? Even if 5 million died that is nearly a quarter of the whole population. I take it you are talking about deaths over a longer time period?
If we want to widen the time period for WW1 then we could also introduce the Russian Civil War?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Civil_War#Casualties

 

[phildwyer]

most peoples understanding of WW1

Most Turkish people? Or most English people? They see it differently you know.

It's not edifying to swap atrocity numbers, nor is it necessary to this argument. The point--which you surely must accept by now--is that the Ottoman State and Armenians engaged in warfare, as did many other national and religious groups in the bloody chaos that reigned in Anatolia between 1912 and 1922, and that all sides massacred significant numbers of the others' civilian populations.

 

[phildwyer]

I don't know why this has turned into a slanging match?

It's not a slanging match, not between you and me anyway. But this is an issue on which I feel strongly.

 

[stowpirate]

Most Turkish people? Or most English people? They see it differently you know.

Interesting point you make about time period. When WW1 actually started could then be up for debate. It never really ended in 1918, possibly finished in the early 1920's. Or you could argue that Treaty of Versailles etc.. was just infact a ceasefire with strings attached. So we may have one myth, as in 1914-18 is not correct timescale except in Western European involvement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_World_War_I

 

[Pickman's model]

It's not a slanging match, not between you and me anyway. But this is an issue on which I feel strongly.

it's just a pity it's not an issue on which you feel it necessary to engage brain before posting

 

[ViolentPanda]

You're making this up on the fly, Johnny.

The Armenians allied with Russia, and fought in the field against the Ottoman state, both as part of the Russian army and as guerrilla irregulars. It was war. No comparison with the Jewish Holocaust then.

The fact that the Armenian military sided with the Tsarists hardly justifies the collective punishment of Armenians by the new Turkish state (or by those convenient "Kurdish irregulars" on which so much is blamed).

 

[Pickman's model]

You have the mentality of Yagoda. You fucking freak.

you're like that cop who came on here and said he found the notion of anarchy attractive. only with you it's third position fascism.

 

[phildwyer]

The fact that the Armenian military sided with the Tsarists hardly justifies the collective punishment of Armenians by the new Turkish state

Nobody claims any massacres were carried out by "the new Turkish state," which was not established until 1923.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The Ottoman Turks worried that Christian Armenia would ally with Russia.

TBF, they Ottomans did have good reason to fear that, and had good reasons for not wanting Russia to have yet another access point through which to menace the Ottoman empire, especially when they were also contending with the fact that a free Bulgaria gave the Serbs (and via the Serbs, the Russians) the means to menace the Ottoman west flank. The existential threat didn't, of course, go away after the war ended, even taking into account the formation of the Soviet Union - access through the Turkish Straits into the Med was still an economic imperative, as was advancing the spread of the Soviet Union into the Russian empire's traditional client states.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Nobody claims any massacres were carried out by "the new Turkish state," which was not established until 1923.

Mmmm, the state of Israel uses that one, too.