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1914-18 : The Great Slaughter - Challenging A Year Of Myth Making.

Mmmm, the state of Israel uses that one, too.

Yes but since the Turkish Republic was born out of an armed struggle against the Ottoman Empire, the Turks have a far more justifiable case when distancing themselves from their predecessors.

So what we are looking at are massacres (not genocide) committed mostly by Kurds, in the service of a currently non-existent Empire. For which modern, republican Turkey is still being blamed a century later. The entire situation is absurd, not to mention racist.
 
The existential threat didn't, of course, go away after the war ended, even taking into account the formation of the Soviet Union - access through the Turkish Straits into the Med was still an economic imperative, as was advancing the spread of the Soviet Union into the Russian empire's traditional client states.

The Soviet Union was initially allied with Ataturk. Relations cooled after Ataturk offered refuge to Trotsky, but there remains a strong tradition of pro-Soviet Turks of which Nazim Hikmet is the secular saint.
 
Yes but since the Turkish Republic was born out of an armed struggle against the Ottoman Empire, the Turks have a far more justifiable case when distancing themselves from their predecessors.

So what we are looking at are massacres (not genocide) committed mostly by Kurds, in the service of a currently non-existent Empire. For which modern, republican Turkey is still being blamed a century later. The entire situation is absurd, not to mention racist.
so because you say the genocide (raphael lemkin) was committed 'mostly by kurds', and not ethnic turks, it was in fact not a genocide - lemkin was iyo wrong - and the successor state to the now deceased empire should not be blamed.
 
The Nazis believed that European Jews were sympathetic to Bolshevism.

The Nazis affected to believe that European Jews were not only sympathetic to Bolshevism, but created it too. They also affected to believe that communists in general were predominantly Jews.

The difference being that the Ottomans had a genuine ongoing strategic concern with regard to Russia, whereas the Nazis wove their manufactured concern into their strategic outlook to justify or reinforce measures they'd already decided to take.
 
While the Government of Turkey has previously acknowledged "a massacre, even a crime against humanity", it charged Armenian-Turkish journalist, Hrant Dink, with "insults to Turkishness" for writing about the incident. In 2003 it introduced a law requiring schools to deny the massacre.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide_reparations

In an attempt by the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) to comply with European Union standards, the opening up of the Ottoman land registry and deed records to the public were considered. However, on 26 August 2005, the National Security Committee of the Turkish Armed Forces forbid such attempts by stating:

The Ottoman records kept at the Land Register and Cadaster Surveys General Directorate offices must be sealed and not available to the public, as they have the potential to be exploited by alleged genocide claims and property claims against the State Charitable Foundation assets. Opening them to general public use is against state interests.[13]

On 15 June 2011, the United States House Foreign Affairs Committee of the 112th Congress passed House Resolution 306 by a vote of 43 to one which demanded from the Republic of Turkey "to safeguard its Christian heritage and to return confiscated church properties."[78][79] Turkish-American organizations attempted to block the bill from passing but ultimately failed.[80]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confiscated_Armenian_Properties_in_Turkey#Current_developments

Still ongoing with a hint of denial?
 
Yes but since the Turkish Republic was born out of an armed struggle against the Ottoman Empire, the Turks have a far more justifiable case when distancing themselves from their predecessors.

So what we are looking at are massacres (not genocide) committed mostly by Kurds, in the service of a currently non-existent Empire. For which modern, republican Turkey is still being blamed a century later. The entire situation is absurd, not to mention racist.

Your talking bollocks. Its called the Armenian Genocide and is recognized as such Kurds took part in it ,but, It was Ottoman Turks who wanted rid of the Armenians and set about organizing their extermniation.
 
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stowpirate, missed your post earlier, i don't know enough to discuss about it in depth, not sure i want to tbh. it's not a competition.

are you armenian yourself then? I always wanted to go. They do nice food :cool: and I used to work with armenian refugees from another conflict.

Writing system is interesting as well :)
 
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stowpirate, missed your post earlier, i don't know enough to discuss about it in depth, not sure i want to tbh. it's not a competition.

Always been interested on a casual basis in modern history. This is quite a shocker as I was unaware of this genocide as it not really mentioned in connection with WW1.

are you armenian yourself then? I always wanted to go.

I am told I am half Welsh, with some English, Russian and Scandinavian blood. I am told there is a family tree and book being written online somewhere in Australia of all places :)
 
Its called the Armenian Genocide and is recognized as such

Without being arrogant, I think I've settled this question conclusively over the last couple of pages, so I won't continue this discussion further.

But I'll finish by saying that even the most ardent advocates of the "Armenian Genocide" theory would never claim that their version is universally recognized, as you seem to imply here.
 
Would you admit to something you hadn't done?

A tad cynical here but what if an apology opens the floodgate for legal claims for compensation for victims/families?

Against financial institutions
California-based lawyers Brian S. Kabateck, Vartkes Yeghiayan, Mark J. Geragos, and William Shernoff filed a series of lawsuits against American and European financial institutions in order to recover Armenian assets and insurance compensations.

  • In July 2004, after California Legislature passed the Armenian Genocide Insurance Act, descendants of Armenian Genocide victims settled a case for about 2400 life insurance policies from New York Life written on Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire.[28] Some of the life insurance policies were written as early as 1875, but were not paid after the Genocide. Around 1916-1918, the Turkish government attempted to recover for the people it had killed with the argument that there are no identifiable heirs to the policy holders, but did not succeed.[28][29] The settlement provided 20 million dollars, of which 11 million was for heirs of the Genocide victims.[28]
  • In 2005, the French insurance company AXA was also accused of not paying compensations to the descendants of those who perished during the Armenian Genocide. After a class-action lawsuit, it agreed to pay 17 million dollars to descendants and Armenian philanthropic groups.[30] In March 2010, the company provided life insurance premiums to 1,000 families of descendants of Armenians killed in 1915.[31]
  • In 2006, descendants of the Armenian Genocide filed a class action lawsuit against Deutsche Bank and Dresdner Bank which seeks the recovery of millions of dollars of money and property withheld by the two German banks after the Armenian Genocide.[6] The lawsuit asserts that the banks profited from the 1915 atrocities in order to conceal and prevent the recovery of assets belonging to Armenian families.[6] The banks' cooperation has been limited.[6]
Against the Getty museum
On June 1, 2010, the Western Prelacy of the Armenian Apostolic Church of America has sued the J. Paul Getty Museum to demand the return of seven pages ripped from a sacred Armenian Bible dating back to 1256 as well as damages of 35 million dollars.[32] According to the Western Prelacy, the seven pages were ripped from the Armenian Church's Zeyt'un Gospels during the genocide.[33] The Zeyt'un Gospels were illustrated by Toros Roslin, and the rest of the sacred book is located at the Matenadaran in Yerevan, Armenia.[34] According to the Getty, the museum legally acquired the pages, which is known as the Canon Tables, in 1994 from an anonymous private collector "after a thorough review of their provenance."[34] Michael Bazyler, a Chapman University law professor and member of the plaintiff's legal team, believes this is the first case filed in the United States for the return of cultural or religious objects taken around the time of World War I.[34]

Against the Turkish government and two banks
On July 29, 2010, Armenian-American lawyers filed a federal lawsuit against the Turkish government, the Central Bank of the Republic of Turkey and Ziraat Bankası, seeking compensation for the descendants of Armenians whose property was allegedly seized during the Armenian Genocide. The plaintiffs are Garbis Davouyan of Los Angeles and Hrayr Turabian of Queens. The suit - the first directed against the government of the Republic of Turkey - alleges breach of statutory trust, unjust enrichment, human rights violations and violations of international law.[35] It seeks compensation for land, buildings and businesses allegedly seized from Armenians along with bank deposits and property, including priceless religious and other artifacts, some of which are now kept in museums in the Republic of Turkey. The lawsuit claims more than a million Armenians were killed in forced marches, concentration camps and massacres "perpetrated, assisted and condoned" by Turkish officials and armed forces. Lawyers for the plaintiffs think that records of the properties and profits still exist, and they are seeking an accounting that could reach billions of dollars.[35]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide_reparations#Recent_developments
 
stowpirate, missed your post earlier, i don't know enough to discuss about it in depth, not sure i want to tbh. it's not a competition.

are you armenian yourself then? I always wanted to go. They do nice food :cool: and I used to work with armenian refugees from another conflict.

Writing system is interesting as well :)

Appropriately enough it was an Armenian ..and a lifelong pacifist..Missak Manouchian, who led the most ferocious resistance unit in Paris during the occupation . Which had a strong international jewish contingent among its numbers too. Almost half of them were jewish, refugees from accross Europe. The Manouchian cell carried out some devastating operations and were constantly on the go .
Missak Manouchian himself was a survivor of the Armenian genocide . He watched his brother die in front of him as a child.

http://www.marxists.org/history/france/resistance/manouchian/manouchian-group.htm
 
Without being arrogant, I think I've settled this question conclusively over the last couple of pages, so I won't continue this discussion further.

But I'll finish by saying that even the most ardent advocates of the "Armenian Genocide" theory would never claim that their version is universally recognized, as you seem to imply here.

No you really haven't you just brought up the various excuses used by people trying to deny it as a genocide.
 
No you really haven't you just brought up the various excuses used by people trying to deny it as a genocide.

Sigh.

Alright. Tell me which of these statements, if any, you believe to be untrue. I put it to you that if you accept 1-5, you must also accept 6.

1. During WW1 and until 1920, Armenian troops engaged in warfare against the Ottoman Empire, both as units of the Russian Army and as guerrillas.

2. Armenian troops carried out many massacres of Turkish and Kurdish civilians.

3. The massacres of Armenian civilians in Anatolia were mainly carried out by Kurdish irregular forces.

4. The state which conducted the campaigns against Armenian civilians no longer exists.

5. That state was in any case multi-ethnic.

6. It is absurd to hold modern, republican Turkey to account for atrocities carried out a century ago under the direction of the Ottoman Empire.
 
Look, if you're going to call what Germany did to the Poles "Genocide," .

Part of Hitler's Obersalzburg speech:

Poland will be depopulated and settled with Germans. My pact with the Poles was merely conceived of as a gaining of time. As for the rest, gentlemen, the fate of Russia will be exactly the same as 1 am now going through with in the case of Poland. After Stalin's death-he is a very sick man-we will break the Soviet Union. Then there will begin the dawn of the German rule of the earth.

The little States cannot scare me. After Kemal's [i.e. Ataturk] death Turkey is governed by cretins and half idiots. Carol of Roumania is through and through the corrupt slave of his sexual instincts. The King of Belgium and the Nordic kings are soft jumping jacks who are dependent upon the good digestions of their over-eating and tired peoples.
We shall have to take into the bargain the defection of Japan. I save Japan a full year's time. The Emperor is a counterpart to the last Czar - weak, cowardly, undecided. May he become a victim of the revolution. My going together with Japan never was popular. We shall continue to create disturbances in the Far East and in Arabia. Let us think as "gentlemen" and let us see in these peoples at best lacquered half maniacs who are anxious to experience the whip.

The opportunity is as favourable as never before. 1 have but one worry, namely that Chamberlain or some other such pig of a fellow (Saukerl) will come at the last moment with proposals or with ratting (Umfall). He will fly down the stairs, even if I shall personally have to trample on his belly in the eyes of the photographers.

No, it is too late for this. The attack upon and the destruction of Poland begins Saturday early. 1 shall let a few companies in Polish uniform attack in Upper Silesia or in the Protectorate. Whether the world believes it is quite indifferent (scheissegal). The world believes only in success.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/hitler-obersalzberg.asp
 
Generalplan Ost:

The Generalplan Ost (GPO) (English: Master Plan East) was a secret Nazi German plan for the colonization of Central and Eastern Europe.[1] Implementation would have necessitated genocide[2] and ethnic cleansing on a vast scale to be undertaken in these European territories, occupied by Germany during World War II. It would have included the enslavement, expulsion and extermination of most Slavic peoples in Europe. The plan, prepared in the years 1939–1942, was part of Adolf Hitler's and the Nazi movement's Lebensraum policy and a fulfillment of the Drang nach Osten (English: Drive towards the East) ideology of German expansion to the east, both of them part of the larger plan to establish the New Order.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost
 

You're a strange fellow Johnny.

The account of this "speech," given in the link you provide, ends thusly:

The speech was received with enthusiasm. Göring jumped on a table, thanked blood-thirstily and made blood-thirsty promises. He danced like a wild man. The few that had misgivings remained quiet.

Elsewhere in this "speech," Hitler promises that if Chamberlain arrives with peace proposals, he (Hitler) will kick him (Chamberlain) down the stairs. In front of photographers.
 
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Many (not all) people who try to deny this, as for example by insinuating that there have been many such events, do so for anti-semitic reasons.
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What complete and utter bullshit.

There have been a number of genocides in the world's history: Darfur and Rwanda spring immediately to mind. To claim that those who call such events 'genocide' do so for reasons of anti-Semitism, is so ridiculous as to be beyond laughable.
 
You're a strange fellow Johnny.

The account of this speech, given in the link you provide, ends thusly:

The speech was received with enthusiasm. Göring jumped on a table, thanked blood-thirstily and made blood-thirsty promises. He danced like a wild man. The few that had misgivings remained quiet.

Elsewhere in this speech, Hitler promises that if Chamberlain arrives with peace proposals, he (Hitler) will kick him (Chamberlain) down the stairs. In front of photographers.


You missed the important part, even though bolded.

Poland will be depopulated and settled with Germans.
 
Sigh.

Alright. Tell me which of these statements, if any, you believe to be untrue. I put it to you that if you accept 1-5, you must also accept 6.

1. During WW1 and until 1920, Armenian troops engaged in warfare against the Ottoman Empire, both as units of the Russian Army and as guerrillas.

2. Armenian troops carried out many massacres of Turkish and Kurdish civilians.

3. The massacres of Armenian civilians in Anatolia were mainly carried out by Kurdish irregular forces.

4. The state which conducted the campaigns against Armenian civilians no longer exists.

5. That state was in any case multi-ethnic.

6. It is absurd to hold modern, republican Turkey to account for atrocities carried out a century ago under the direction of the Ottoman Empire.

1 Does not excuse genocide.
2 As above and The Ottoman massacres was far larger in number and range.
3 Under the Orders and direction of the Ottoman Authorities
4 Turkey is the direct Descendant of the Ottoman Empire
5 With the Turks in charge
6 No more than blaming the Uk for the crimes of the Empire.
 
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