Why people don't want kids anymore (apparently)

[seeformiles]

I was more speaking from an emotional point of view. Some people still have children despite not wanting them, for all sorts of reasons. But that number has fallen considerably as your statistics show. So the number of people who don't want children is the same, regardless of whether they have them or not. People just have more choice.

I imagine there were many, many resentful parents in olden times who felt they couldn't voice their utter horror as another unwanted pregnancy revealed itself.

About 10 years ago, I had a very honest conversation with my dad’s best mate who is from an Irish Catholic family with 9 kids. He told me that his dad was a total bastard and would pretty much rape his mother whenever he felt like it. Being brought up in the 1940s, no one talked about it and I got the feeling he was unburdening himself - since we were being brutally honest about our respective family troubles. Bloody horrific though - esp. while being held up by the church as a fine example of a respectable WC Catholicism.

 

[seeformiles]

My own excuse(s)

• money, we have just about enough to live on
• housing, I was renting till I was 40 (so 2 years ago)
• neither of us have or are close to family so all of that unbilled support isn't there and neither of us have a particularly strong social network

Those are the main ones, others are available

My (& Mrs SFM’s) experience of family pretty much informed our decision not to have kids. I had a shitty childhood with an unpredictable, violent and mentally ill dad who made it clear to me when he was drunk on many occasions that he regretted getting married, having kids, and wished he’d joined the Navy instead. My dad’s mother was an evil old witch who nearly died trying to have a second child and I think she took it out on my old man for the rest of his life. Mrs SFM and I set up home with no family support network - something most of our friends with kids rely on heavily - plus, having a brother 10 years younger, I was aware at an early age how much work and stress a child is. Another reason is, having inherited a lot of my dad’s mental illness traits, I had no wish to pass those genes on and the idea of repeating my parents’ mistakes was too horrendous to contemplate.
On the plus side, we have several godchildren who seem to be growing up OK - so nice to have the contact with the next generation - and many of our friends treat us like extended family anyway and include us in their significant events and anniversaries. Feel quite lucky.

 

[MickiQ]

And specifically, the rise of childless aged folk will, inevitably, place ever more demands on the adult social care 'system'. Unpaid geriatric care from children must save the state tens of billions, but with greater proportions of the childless reaching old age that element of unpaid care will decrease. We're already back to levels of childlessness not seen since the immediate post WW1 era when the shortage of marriage partners reduced marriage and family prospects.


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This 2021 Economist piece was bigging up the non-economic factors lying behind declining fertility rates:



and seeing this consequence:

Few old people are childless today. Those celebrating their 80th birthdays this year belong to a cohort born in 1941, among whom only 11% ended up child-free. Falling fertility and growing lifespans mean that the number of childless 80-year-olds will triple over the next two decades, according to the ons, and seems likely to rise thereafter. That will put more pressure on the care system, because old people without children are more likely to receive formal care.

This is pretty much the ultimate social and personal argument for having kids of course they will return the favour and look after you when you can no longer do it for yourself.
'You care for us when we're gaining our teeth. we'll care for you when your losing yours'

My Dad gets the following services :-

A full personal concierge service where someone handles all his dealings with the bank, the council, his GP, his dentist for him. If he needs anything doing at his house someone books a tradesman and turns up to supervise them and handles payment.

Twice a week someone with full knowledge of his specific dietary requirements does all his shopping brings it to his house and puts it away.

Personal taxi service that collects him from his living room (not merely his door) and takes him to any appointments such as the hospital and waits there for him before taking him back home.

Someone visits every day without fail to check on his welfare especially because the stubborn old sod still won't wear his frigging alert pendant, they usually do the washing up and check he's eating properly whilst they're there.

There are lots of people involved this but he can confident that everything is fully co-ordinated and is able to hand over full control of his financial affairs to someone who he can trust absolutely.

He doesn't get this because Cheshire East provide a superlative care service to their pensioners (far fucking from it from what I hear) nor is he rich.
It's because he has a family (4 kids, 13 grandkids and 15 great-grandkids) and there are millions of other families providing tens of billions of care services to other elderly people. The Q's are far from unique.

There is no possible way that the state can provide this level of care, it just doesn't have the financial resources or certainly the manpower resources to do it. The care system will collapse instantly without the care provided by families especially children.
Eventually the situation will sort itself out as the old person bulge just dies off and they shrink back to being a proper percentage of a smaller population but that is a rather brutal solution.

 

[petee]

About 10 years ago, I had a very honest conversation with my dad’s best mate who is from an Irish Catholic family with 9 kids. He told me that his dad was a total bastard and would pretty much rape his mother whenever he felt like it.

my mayo mother, born 1913, was one of 12. i have long wondered how her mother dealt with it - 12 kids in about 14 years - and what her (my grandmother's) relationship was with her husband.

i'm a singleton, and have no kids. so from 19 (throwing in my father's family), to one, to none.

 

[Elpenor]

This is pretty much the ultimate social and personal argument for having kids of course they will return the favour and look after you when you can no longer do it for yourself.
'You care for us when we're gaining our teeth. we'll care for you when your losing yours'

My Dad gets the following services :-

A full personal concierge service where someone handles all his dealings with the bank, the council, his GP, his dentist for him. If he needs anything doing at his house someone books a tradesman and turns up to supervise them and handles payment.

Twice a week someone with full knowledge of his specific dietary requirements does all his shopping brings it to his house and puts it away.

Personal taxi service that collects him from his living room (not merely his door) and takes him to any appointments such as the hospital and waits there for him before taking him back home.

Someone visits every day without fail to check on his welfare especially because the stubborn old sod still won't wear his frigging alert pendant, they usually do the washing up and check he's eating properly whilst they're there.

There are lots of people involved this but he can confident that everything is fully co-ordinated and is able to hand over full control of his financial affairs to someone who he can trust absolutely.

He doesn't get this because Cheshire East provide a superlative care service to their pensioners (far fucking from it from what I hear) nor is he rich.
It's because he has a family (4 kids, 13 grandkids and 15 great-grandkids) and there are millions of other families providing tens of billions of care services to other elderly people. The Q's are far from unique.

There is no possible way that the state can provide this level of care, it just doesn't have the financial resources or certainly the manpower resources to do it. The care system will collapse instantly without the care provided by families especially children.
Eventually the situation will sort itself out as the old person bulge just dies off and they shrink back to being a proper percentage of a smaller population but that is a rather brutal solution.

This is why I’ll probably look to end things if I get to the point that I can’t look after myself. No family to assist, unlikely to have the money to pay for care even if I wanted to, and by expecting nothing from the state I will not be disappointed.

 

[brogdale]

This is why I’ll probably look to end things if I get to the point that I can’t look after myself. No family to assist, unlikely to have the money to pay for care even if I wanted to, and by expecting nothing from the state I will not be disappointed.

Brutally honest and I can completely get what you're saying.

 

[Cloo]

I will be telling my kids that if I go gaga when I'm older they are to put me in a home ASAP. I have no expectation that they should dedicate their lives to looking after me and will try to arrange finances so that that burden is limited as well.

 

[brogdale]

I will be telling my kids that if I go gaga when I'm older they are to put me in a home ASAP. I have no expectation that they should dedicate their lives to looking after me and will try to arrange finances so that that burden is limited as well.

That's very fore-sighted and sensible. However, many of the present generation of elderly grew up in rental and, having been able to become homeowners in the 50's & 60's, are reluctant to countenance giving up their home. They hang on longer than they should and regard being "put in home" as failure. When they retain mental capacity it's difficult for their kids to change that situation if they are determined.

 

[og ogilby]

I will be telling my kids that if I go gaga when I'm older they are to put me in a home ASAP.

They're probably already planning it.

 

[Wolveryeti]

I had no life plans to have kids but ended up having 2 because I was with someone I loved who really did want them. 100% would have broken up if I had said no.

Overall I love them to bits and dont regret my decision, but I don't want any more. Life especially with very young < 4yo littleys is hard- very little sleep, free time or money (because of childcare). Also quite limiting because of the type of stuff you can do. I have also had lots of rows with my wife over parenting style - her parents doted over their 5 kids who were their all; I am an only child to 2 much more 'laissez faire' parents.

My eldest is 7 and a proper character - great fun to be around. I am looking forward to going on grown up adventures with both of them soon.

 

[ska invita]

They're probably already planning it.

It's not kids choice, if an elder doesn't want to go to a home they can't be forced

 

[klang]

They're probably already planning it.

Siblings and I had worked out a rota for mum-duties once she's in need of assistance. Mum point-blank refused. 'being a burden' wasn't that big a deal. More that she doesn't want to be shuffled about and patronised by her children...

 

[Cloo]

That's very fore-sighted and sensible. However, many of the present generation of elderly grew up in rental and, having been able to become homeowners in the 50's & 60's, are reluctant to countenance giving up their home. They hang on longer than they should and regard being "put in home" as failure. When they retain mental capacity it's difficult for their kids to change that situation if they are determined.

My parents have given my siblings and I power of attorney, we signed stuff a few years ago. I don't suspect will ever be needed for my mum as her health is crappy enough that she's not likely to make it to having dementia or being super frail... dad may be another matter and would be very reluctant to leave home.

 

[brogdale]

My parents have given my siblings and I power of attorney, we signed stuff a few years ago. I don't suspect will ever be needed for my mum as her health is crappy enough that she's not likely to make it to having dementia or being super frail... dad may be another matter and would be very reluctant to leave home.

Again, very sensible.
Unfortunately, speaking from experience, not all families are so organised.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Trigger warning: pointless conspiracy thinking here
In the UK we have "the nudge unit" - which i take to be a wider think-tank ideology that looks to manipulate public behaviour by pulling subtle levers, usually economic.
What I wonder is to what degree, if at all, the climate crisis is being responded to by nudge unit policies of making energy expensive (so people use less), and making life expensive in general as a way to reduce population in a variety of ways (including killing vulnerable people off as well as making parenting a financial nightmare).

...Its just thoughts that have crossed my mind, Im not saying this happens, but its the kind of thinking I could well image happening in the corridors of power. There's many a eugenicist in Whitehall. I appreciate this is happening globally, but that doesn't necessary negate it. China's one-child policy is an interesting case in point

So they'll do that but they won't do actual policies to combat climate change? Nah, don't buy it. If we're being nudged it's towards business as usual.

 

[Rompipalle]

I personally have no regrets about having children but I do worry a little about the sort of world that our own children may be living in and in which they may be bringing up their own children in the future.

One of our sons and his wife absolutely do not intend to have children and our daughter seems unlikely to either, as she is a bit phobic about personal relationships going wrong. Despite being very gregarious and having loads of friends, she finds one-to-one personal relationships fraught with potential difficulties and tends to avoid long-term commitment. Although she adores her friends' children, I doubt she would want to bring up a child unless she was in a secure and committed relationship.

So our most realistic prospect of grandchildren looks to be our younger son. He and his girlfriend probably will have children at some point but I think they probably want to get married first and they've not yet taken the first step in that direction.

 

[Cloo]

Oldest (16) is adamant they don't want kids, I'm not necessarily imagining they're going to change their mind.

 

[marty21]

my mayo mother, born 1913, was one of 12. i have long wondered how her mother dealt with it - 12 kids in about 14 years - and what her (my grandmother's) relationship was with her husband.

i'm a singleton, and have no kids. so from 19 (throwing in my father's family), to one, to none.

My Mayo Grandmother was born around 1910 - had 14 kids - all but one survived into adulthood, My Limerick Grandmother born around the same time, had 10 kids, all survived into adulthood. Of the various grandchildren (and there are a lot, I don't know all of them) I think the top tally is 4 kids.

 

[marty21]

I will be telling my kids that if I go gaga when I'm older they are to put me in a home ASAP. I have no expectation that they should dedicate their lives to looking after me and will try to arrange finances so that that burden is limited as well.

My mum is 82, lives on her own, but sees my 2 sisters regularly, and my brother regularly as they all live in Bath. I think when she can no longer live on her own, she will move in with one of my sisters. Both have the room, and are nearly empty nesters. If I reach an ancient age, I can't imagine my niece or my 2 nephews wanting to put me up . Although they will all want to #getinthewill so who knows

 

[furluxor]

I have an old age fantasy where my friends and I form a village of our own and live strange, helping each other out. Failing that, I'd consider a co-op. Failing that, a lone nutter with a timely death.

My gran is in her 80s and has zero wish to live with my parents, despite them getting along fine and chatting daily. I am modelling myself on that lady.

 

[Artaxerxes]

That's very fore-sighted and sensible. However, many of the present generation of elderly grew up in rental and, having been able to become homeowners in the 50's & 60's, are reluctant to countenance giving up their home. They hang on longer than they should and regard being "put in home" as failure. When they retain mental capacity it's difficult for their kids to change that situation if they are determined.

It doesn’t help that homes tend to be quite fucking grim because they are run on maximum extraction lines while paying bare minimum to staff

 

[brogdale]

It doesn’t help that homes tend to be quite fucking grim because they are run on maximum extraction lines while paying bare minimum to staff

Yep, and I do know; we're in our third year of a complaint process about the last miserable 18 months of my FiL's life.

 

[bellaozzydog]

I have an old age fantasy where my friends and I form a village of our own and live strange, helping each other out. Failing that, I'd consider a co-op. Failing that, a lone nutter with a timely death.

My gran is in her 80s and has zero wish to live with my parents, despite them getting along fine and chatting daily. I am modelling myself on that lady.

I’m circling the idea of an old age communal/coop type set up. Bunch of likeminded older people determjned to do their own thing as long as possible with mutual help

 

[Brainaddict]

I’m circling the idea of an old age communal/coop type set up. Bunch of likeminded older people determjned to do their own thing as long as possible with mutual help

A bunch of people talk about this but I rarely see it happening, so I suspect people lose the energy and drive for it as they approach the age where they actually need it...

On the topic of the thread, I think the lack of intergenerational support is a big factor. And just the fact that life is pretty hard if you have to raise kids and work without wider support systems. This isn't an anti-feminist point, just an observation on the failures of liberal feminism, but the expectation/need for both partners to be working (particularly to afford housing) while raising children just makes everything hard. Ideally both parents* could work half-time and live on the one complete salary, but that's largely not possible.

*obviously single parents exist and are heroes.

 

[krtek a houby]

For various reasons, we don't have kids. It occasionally cropped up in our conversations but we came to the decision that it just wasn't for us. Also we got tired of people telling us how blessed we would be.

I particularly got tired of a few people accusing us of being selfish for not having children.

And that's all I can say without getting riled up.

 

[JimW]

The state's been supposedly introducing policies to encourage having more kids here, including the trumpeted lifting of family planning limits, but everyone knows it's pointless without dealing with housing, health and education costs.

 

[shakespearegirl]

Neither my sister or I have kids, when we were younger we were both too scared of turning into our mum and repeating the cycle of abuse and neglect - not that I now think we would have. I got together with MrShakes when I was 37 and he definitely didn’t want kids, if I’d met someone who did I might have been persuaded.

Our two half brothers both had kids very young. One has zero contact with his kids - but he’s a fucking nightmare so I’m not surprised. The other was a great and dedicated dad when he was young and family was everything to him. He’s now gone conspiraloony and it’s hugely affected the relationship with his kids.

My friends who have kids in the UK are pretty honest about the financial and other struggles they’ve had - it’s no bed of roses! I do do think the lack of close inter generational support is a big issue.

 

[ska invita]

I’m circling the idea of an old age communal/coop type set up. Bunch of likeminded older people determjned to do their own thing as long as possible with mutual help

communalise the care homes!!

 

[JimW]

The intergenerational thing here has been exploited often with people basically obliged to dump the kids on the old folks in the village while they work away and maybe get back at new year. Household registration makes it hard for internal migrants to get their kids into urban schools even if they could bring them along while they work all hours to live in substandard housing.

 

[MickiQ]

My parents have given my siblings and I power of attorney, we signed stuff a few years ago. I don't suspect will ever be needed for my mum as her health is crappy enough that she's not likely to make it to having dementia or being super frail... dad may be another matter and would be very reluctant to leave home.

LPA's both financial and personal are a godsend, when Barclays discovered that someone had been nicking money from my Dad's account, my sisters got the LPA out of the box went down to the bank, slapped it on the desk and said "Here you go we have full authority to act on our father's behalf"
Youngest Sister Q has a spreadsheet (For real I've seen it) with everyone's contact details and schedules in it so she can assign tasks to whoever's available. She's Dad's project manager and has us all in a Whatsapp group which she uses to keep everyone informed/issue directives. She loves being in charge but to be honest she's good at it so we leave her to it. It helps enormously that there are so many of us with partners included she has a pool of around 30 people so the looking after Dad workload isn't very onerous for any particular Q. I would imagine if you're a only child or with siblings that don't do their share then looking after elderly relatives can be become very onerous indeed.

It doesn’t help that homes tend to be quite fucking grim because they are run on maximum extraction lines while paying bare minimum to staff

They vary enormously, the one where my maternal grandmother and eventually her daughter my mother ended up was excellent. My grandmother was able to attend my eldest daughter's wedding in 2014 and my mother was able to attend my second daughter's wedding in 2022 due to the home being willing to provide someone (actually 2 someones both times) to escort them to the wedding, look after them throughout and take them home. The second time they even swung by my Dad's and picked him up. They billed me for it both times of course since the home had to pay overtime and travelling costs for the staff but it struck me as fair that they expected me to pay for something that was above and beyond. We certainly never had concerns whenever we visited either of them there.

I had no life plans to have kids but ended up having 2 because I was with someone I loved who really did want them. 100% would have broken up if I had said no.

I think this is one issue where there could never be compromise, a relationship where one wants children and one doesn't seems to me to be pretty much doomed. Doubly so if it's the man who wants kids and the woman doesn't.
That said a lot of people who say they probably don't want kids find they do once they have them. I never really had a burning ambition to be a father I sort of expected I probably would end up as one but only because that it seemed to be the norm. When I held my first daughter in my arms when she was born it was an amazing experience and I knew that from then on the only purpose of my life was to look after her and her mother.