"Young professionals" to infest flats above Iceland

[editor]

I consider it otherwise.

We're talking about the development to buildings in Electric Avenue.

You don't like what's happening to it so how can a question asking for your preferred usage be off topic?

 

[editor]

I personally would rather they were rented out at affordable rents. By that, I mean affordable to people on under £20k per year salaries - people who seem to be largely forgotten about and considered irrelevant by society.

Yes. Me too. And I've said it many times. But seeing as that was not an option, would you have preferred that the buildings remain empty (and possibly rotted away) or be turned into the current (ahem) "yuppie" flats?

 

[poster342002]

Yes. Me too. And I've said it many times. But seeing as that was not an option, would you have preferred that the buildings remain empty (and possubly rotted away) or be turned into the current (ahem) "yuppie" flats?

Either "permitted option" is of no benefeit to ordinary low-paid people, so I find it hard to give a toss.

 

[Giles]

Isn't Giles a property developer?

Not really. I am part-owner of a company that buys and renovates run-down flats, houses and shops and then rents them out. We don't do "development" in the sense of major projects like the one being discussed here, or "doing up" places to sell on.

Recently we've mainly been providing student housing down in Canterbury.

Giles..

 

[Donna Ferentes]

As a general observation, let us suppose, as I do, that we would like a sizeable increase in social housing - something which, by the way, would have a healthy effect on the market for privastre ownership of houses too. In order for this to happen, we need public support for it, and we need public belief that such a thing is possible. We can achieve neither of these things if people adhere to any of the following positions, very different in themselves:

1. "This is the way things are, we should just accept it."
2. "I've worked hard for my home, and I think anything that questions what's happening in the housing market is a threat to that."
3. "If you don't like it fuck you, get a better job."

We have to say that it is not just possible but desirable. In order to do this we have to point out the deleterious consequences of the current policy. These will inevitably involve gentrification, buying to let, the view of a home as an investment and so on. We will also have to say that house prices are unsustainable and that they need to fall substantially. As this will involve moving a lot of people - indeed, precisely those who have found it hardest to get hold of their house - into negative equity, and knocking an awful lot off the paper value of all homeowners' property - this is going to be a very difficult argument to win.

 

[Bob]

Either "permitted option" is of no benefeit to ordinary low-paid people, so I find it hard to give a toss.

Actually it does help ordinary low paid people indirectly - all other things being equal more housing means lower prices & rent.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Actually it does help ordinary low paid people indirectly - all other things being equal more housing means lower prices & rent.

Up to a point Bob. In a given area, an increase in private housing, that moves said area upmarket, is likely to mean higher prices and rent. Of course there may also be benefits to that process, but the higher prices are going to happen, and hurt people.

 

[Bob]

Up to a point Bob. In a given area, an increase in private housing, that moves said area upmarket, is likely to mean higher prices and rent. Of course there may also be benefits to that process, but the higher prices are going to happen, and hurt people.

Well it might increase prices if it made the area look a bit nicer but a) I'm not sure flats above Iceland will really have much of an effect and b) that would be an argument against doing anything that makes the area nicer (e.g. good rubbish removal).... and it is definitely true that there will be overall more housing in the UK if you build more houses - so lower property prices & rents....

 

[tarannau]

Up to a point Bob. In a given area, an increase in private housing, that moves said area upmarket, is likely to mean higher prices and rent. Of course there may also be benefits to that process, but the higher prices are going to happen, and hurt people.

Doesn't seem very likely in this case does it though. A couple of space-limited flats above Iceland, made heady by the smells of urine and E-number packed snackfoods below, aren't really going to elevate the area into Nouveau-Knightsbridge are they?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Well it might increase prices if it made the area look a bit nicer but a) I'm not sure flats above Iceland will really have much of an effect and b) that would be an argument against doing anything that makes the area nicer (e.g. good rubbish removal).... and it is definitely true that there will be overall more housing in the UK if you build more houses - so lower property prices & rents....

indeed, but:

1. It's part of a trend - nobody's thinking of this development as just a one-off.

2. Of course anything that makes an area look nicer can have a similar effect, and hence my observation about possible benefits. Note however that this wouldn't necessarily apply to council tenants!

3. There's been lots of these developments across London and it's not like this has led to any downward pressure on house prices, has it? Of course your general principle is perfectly sound, but it's not working that way.

Doesn't seem very likely in this case does it though. A couple of space-limited flats above Iceland, made heady by the smells of urine and E-number packed snackfoods below, aren't really going to elevate the area into Nouveau-Knightsbridge are they?

See 1. above.

 

[editor]

Doesn't seem very likely in this case does it though. A couple of space-limited flats above Iceland, made heady by the smells of urine and E-number packed snackfoods below, aren't really going to elevate the area into Nouveau-Knightsbridge are they?

I don't think trendy, style bar-clubbing, posh public school, trust-fund yuppies are going to be too chuffed being woken up by the immense racket coming from the market when it sets up every morning and I fancy they won't enjoy experiencing the unique 'ambience' of the street late at night either!

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I don't think trendy, style bar-clubbing, posh public school, trust-fund yuppies are going to be too chuffed being woken up by the immense racket coming from the market when it sets up every morning either!

One imagines though that one long-term effect of a long-term trend may be that said market changes substantially in nature. And/or is made to.

 

[christonabike]

That would not suprise me

 

[Giles]

When those little flats go for absurd amounts of money - unreachable sums to the average worker who has trouble even finding somehwere affordable to RENT... there's your answer.

What answer?

Create 12 new flats out of some long-disused upper floors over shop, sell them, 12 people move in (whether infesting yuppies or otherwise).

No-one moves out. No-one is forced out by this development, are they?

Giles..

 

[editor]

One imagines though that one long-term effect of a long-term trend may be that said market changes substantially in nature. And/or is made to.

The Brixton markets are already under threat, but I don't see how this one development will force the market to change its working practices.

Of course, back in the Edwardian era, Electric Avenue was a very fashionable upmarket shopping destination for the well heeled, so the area's always been in a state of flux.

 

[christonabike]

Well, one development stopped the working practices of the duke of e

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Create 12 new flats out of some long-disused upper floors over shop, sell them, 12 people move in (whether infesting yuppies or otherwise).

No-one moves out. No-one is forced out by this development, are they?

The Brixton markets are already under threat, but I don't see how this one development will force the market to change its working practices.

Trend.

 

[DrRingDing]

This thread although has made me chuckle (see wrath of a librarian) I wish you lot would realise how odd this bitching would be seen by people that are really skint.

I've just had a quick try on an mortgage predictor and my and the Mrs combined wage would give us a whopping 93000 mortgage...now pray tell can you buy with that in London?

 

[editor]

Trend.

How many other buildings are currently being turned into "yuppie-infested" flats on Electric Avenue then?

Or is this one developement some sort of trend setter?

 

[editor]

I've just had a quick try on an mortgage predictor and my and the Mrs combined wage would give us a whopping 93000 mortgage.

Where is that?

I reckon mine would go into the minus!

 

[Donna Ferentes]

How many other buildings are currently being turned into "yuppie-infested" flats on Electric Avenue then?

Or is this one developement some sort of trend setter?

Is it really the only development of its kind in the area in recent times? Or is the similar one round the back of my house a mirage?

 

[ViolentPanda]

The Brixton markets are already under threat, but I don't see how this one development will force the market to change its working practices.

Which is, of course, why Justin made the point about long-term changes, or did you miss that?

Of course, back in the Edwardian era, Electric Avenue was a very fashionable upmarket shopping destination for the well heeled, so the area's always been in a state of flux.

I made this point on the "Larry Merrett leaves Brixton for Chelsea!" thread. London has been dubiously blessed with a cyclical flow of the "middle and upper classes"/wealthy into and out of the "inner city", so nobody denies that there is "flux".
The problem is that the poor/underclass/working class/whatever you wish to call them are ALWAYS the ones that get "pushed out" by this cycle.

 

[editor]

Is it really the only development of its kind in the area in recent times? Or is the similar one round the back of my house a mirage?

Do you live on Electric Avenue then?

 

[poster342002]

Actually it does help ordinary low paid people indirectly - all other things being equal more housing means lower prices & rent.

Does it? If that "more housing" is just simply more of the overpriced same (which gets sold or rented out at even higher prices), what "trickle down" effect is there?

EDIT: Justin has made similar points better than I have above.

 

[editor]

The problem is that the poor/underclass/working class/whatever you wish to call them are ALWAYS the ones that get "pushed out" by this cycle.

Yes. And that sucks. But that doesn't make any one who manages to raise the cash to buy a property an "infesting yuppies", does it?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Does it? If that "more housing" is just simply more of the overpriced same (which gets sold or rented out at even higher prices), what "trickle down" effect is there?

What he means is that if you increase the total amount of housing then, as supply has increased, price should fall even if that additional housing is expensive. This is perfectly sound in theory.

 

[DrRingDing]

Where is that?

https://www.woolwichmortgages.co.uk/gqs/QuickQuoteSteps.aspx

 

[Donna Ferentes]

https://www.woolwichmortgages.co.uk/gqs/QuickQuoteSteps.aspx

It doesn't load! Probably saw me coming.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Depends on the design doesn't it? As far as I can see the stuff built in the 50s - 70s was rubbish because the government was trying to reach politically set targets for building hundreds of thousands of flats a year - so did everything on the cheap. But the 1930s LCC red brick stuff is very well built indeed - and Lambeth has huge amounts of this (though not much in Brixton). And the 1980s and 1990s stuff from what I know is not bad either.

I think you'll find that the point about design was implicit in my post.

BTW, a lot of the "red brick" was inherited from the GLC, was it not?

 

[IntoStella]

Where is that?

I reckon mine would go into the minus!

Oh yes, it's so terrible where you live. I just don't know how you stand it.