"Young professionals" to infest flats above Iceland

[newbie]

I find the intial dumping of all the problems of the housing market onto immigrant "young professionals" in the earlier part of this thread as abit crass.

I don't think that's what I was doing... is an attempt to discuss who constitutes the problem more crass than denying there is a problem and/or relying on markets for the solution?

The fact of youth, education, ambition and a well paid job does not negate responsibility for displacing others from the area they grew up in.

 

[isvicthere?]

...and the parents who know their kids will still be living at home well into their forties

At what age do kids stop saying, "I live with my parents" and instead say, "My parents live with me"?

 

[fanta]

Hollis managed to grasp that there was a real point involed. He also had the grace to apologise. You apparently have neither the grasp nor the grace.

I have nothing to apologise for. I didn't call anyone a cheapskate, I merely agreed that bed-sits are expensive.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I have nothing to apologise for.

Sigh... you have a PM.

 

[tarannau]

I don't think that's what I was doing... is an attempt to discuss who constitutes the problem more crass than denying there is a problem and/or relying on markets for the solution?

The fact of youth, education, ambition and a well paid job does not negate responsibility for displacing others from the area they grew up in.

True. But I doubt many of the people protesting so hard about 'yuppies' earlier on this thread grew up in the area either. There's a wider point to be made, but attributing so much blame to the 'young and educated' now seems like arbitrarily (and unreasonably) pulling up the drawbridge to suit ourselves

 

[fanta]

Sigh... you have a PM.

Make it the last one please!

To reiterate:

I have nothing to apologise for. I didn't call anyone a cheapskate, I merely agreed that bed-sits are expensive.

I hope that is fucking clear!

 

[Hollis]

True. But I doubt many of the people protesting so hard about 'yuppies' earlier on this thread grew up in the area either. There's a wider point to be made, but attributing so much blame to the 'young and educated' now seems like arbitrarily (and unreasonably) pulling up the drawbridge to suit ourselves

Too true - they're a convenient scapegoat.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Also, manufactured out of not a little straw.

 

[newbie]

True. But I doubt many of the people protesting so hard about 'yuppies' earlier on this thread grew up in the area either. There's a wider point to be made, but attributing so much blame to the 'young and educated' now seems like arbitrarily (and unreasonably) pulling up the drawbridge to suit ourselves

Chicken or egg? in W Somerset 19% of the population are aged between 20 & 40: in Lambeth it's 44%. As the young people of W Somerset flock into London looking for fame & fortune they displace those who grew up locally. So I don't think considering the question is arbitrary, and whether it's reasonable is what I'm trying to find out.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

It's also reasonable to question whether people who moved in befoire and have problems with what's happening now and simply trying to pull up the drawbridge. I mean I'm not (fucking ineffective drawbridge if I were). One reason is that the basis on which I was living in Brixton wasn't the same as is involved in the trend which I'm criticising. I was a lodger.

 

[LDR]

Yuppie!!

If only.

I've taken a drop in pay each time in my last three jobs. In fact, I'm now earning the least I ever have since working in Pizza Hut ten years ago.

The funny thing is when I was earning good money I could afford to get on the property ladder, and now I am not paying rent I can afford to take a drop in salary. It's madness. The people who can least afford it get charged more than the people who can.

It's the same bollocks with the frequent flyer system. I've got enough points for a free flight halfway across the world. To many poor I suspect that would be a holiday of a lifetime. Yet only the people who are rich enough to travel lots, get offered the free flights.

The system benefits the rich and ostracises the poor.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I think it was Sting whom I read observing, some years ago, that once you acquire a certain amount of wealth, you never have to pay for anything again.

 

[tarannau]

Chicken or egg? in W Somerset 19% of the population are aged between 20 & 40: in Lambeth it's 44%. As the young people of W Somerset flock into London looking for fame & fortune they displace those who grew up locally. So I don't think considering the question is arbitrary, and whether it's reasonable is what I'm trying to find out.

But is the 'local youth' being displaced as you suggest earlier in this thread, or mainly the older generation of locals choosing to move away?

It's no compensation, but in my experience it's the latter. I'm not sure how this would compare to historical patterns, but I would suspect that recent years have just seen the acceleration of a process that was already well established.

No answers I'm afraid, but when there's such demand for property within travelling distance of Central London and jobs - via house purchase, rental or lodging - it's always likely to put increasing pressure on local housing stock.

 

[Hollis]

Isn't there something abit idealistic about all this 'local communtiy' stuff anyway.. London's probably the no.1 cosmopolitan city in the world. Inward migration change has always/is inevitable. Brixton due to its 'coolness'... just happens to be at the cutting edge of this process at the moment.. Anyway I bet half the houses in Brixton used to be inhabited by bourgeois Victorian toffs.

The Yuppies are reclaiming their Inheritence.. !!!

 

[Donna Ferentes]

No answers I'm afraid, but when there's such demand for property within travelling distance of Central London and jobs - via house purchase, rental or lodging - it's always likely to put increasing pressure on local housing stock.

Why increasing? Unless employment in central London increases (which it may have done, but I've not heard that this is so) why would the demand for conveniently-situated housing increase? (In fact, as we know, the trend used to be in the opposite direction, with people who had cars moving out of London, as for instance my parents did in the mid-Seventies).

 

[newbie]

It's also reasonable to question whether people who moved in befoire and have problems with what's happening now and simply trying to pull up the drawbridge.

Of course it's reasonable to ask, although the 'pull up the drawbridge' expression rather presumes an equality of interest tipped only by prior involvement. That's not really the case- as I said earlier I'm watching people who grew up here having to move away when they have kids, at just the point when support networks are most needed. It's idle to deny that they have a greater stake than an incomer who fancies the vibrant nature of the area and can afford to pay the asking price.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

That's not really the case- as I said earlier I'm watching people who grew up here having to move away when they have kids, at just the point when support networks are most needed. It's idle to deny that they have a greater stake than an incomer who fancies the vibrant nature of the area and can afford to pay the asking price.

Of course I couldn't agree more.

 

[tarannau]

Of course it's reasonable to ask, although the 'pull up the drawbridge' expression rather presumes an equality of interest tipped only by prior involvement. That's not really the case- as I said earlier I'm watching people who grew up here having to move away when they have kids, at just the point when support networks are most needed. It's idle to deny that they have a greater stake than an incomer who fancies the vibrant nature of the area and can afford to pay the asking price.

I agree that it's a shame - I've watched the same movement myself again and agian. Most of the friends and family are now based in Norbury and beyond as a result...


I have got a concern with the last sentence of your post though. I severely doubt that a significant proportion of those moving to Lambeth do so because it’s ‘vibrant’ – it may be a minor factor, but - like most others – the vast bulk of those moving here will do so because the area meets a combination of factors, probably far more to do with cost/location suitability than any notion of trendiness. And how do you protect locals in reality – do we just try and keep out the most recent incomers and youth … or do we prohibit any 'non-homegrown' Lambethonian from renting or purchasing anything in future to protect the stake of locals like me and you? It's just difficult to draw the line...

 

[Mrs Magpie]

Anyway I bet half the houses in Brixton used to be inhabited by bourgeois Victorian toffs. [/I]

Well, if you look at Booths Poverty Map of London there was a much more mixed demographic. The poor lived cheek by jowl with the rich because the rich depended on the poor in a much more immediate way than now... crossing sweepers, gardeners, cooks etc.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Also presumably because both factory owner and factory employee had to walk to work?

 

[Pickman's model]

Well, if you look at Booths Poverty Map of London there was a much more mixed demographic. The poor lived cheek by jowl with the rich because the rich depended on the poor in a much more immediate way than now... crossing sweepers, gardeners, cooks etc.

booth's map

 

[toadinthehole]

I maintain that these places are completely out of the reach of the vast majority of single young people, based on local prices for similar properties

I've checked with planning committee. The application was voted through.

Has anyone mentioned yet that most, if not all, of these flats will go to white yuppies, given the small size of the black London middle class?

Let's check in 18 months time. You just need to stand outside at 6pm and watch the poor darlings come and go.

And we mustn't criticise them. They don't mean any harm. To criticise a yupp is to compare him or her to a holocaust victim (copyright see above).

And the presence of Brixton yups are why Nelson Mandella came to Brixton. To argue for white yuppies to infest "luxury appartments" by Brixton tube. Why else would he bother? Surely he's not interested in social justice?

I heard him say similar things in Trafalgar Square last week, to a doting crowd of 20,000 yups.

 

[Giles]

Why not? Prices of other commodities come down, why not living space?

Rents in London *have* come down in the last few years, largely because there are more places to rent due to more people doing buy-to-let.
The company I work for are definitely getting less for flats we rent out now than we were 4 or 5 years back.

I think the cheapest way to live in a decent place is to rent a room in a houseshare. Try:

Gumtree

or

Moveflat

Giles..

 

[detective-boy]

And another thing ...

I've just remembered seeing some statistic somewhere about vast increases in single-person households over the last few years. This no doubt helps explain the ridiculous costs of bedsits and small flats, demand outstripping supply and all that. Not sure the authors explained why there had been the increase though.

Thinking back over my 44 years I have seen a significant change in home ownership habits - when I was a teenager I remember thinking that owning (or even renting) your own flat or house went with marriage (which I anticipated may cause me some local difficulty... ).

 

[editor]

yuppies...yupp....yups...Brixton yups....yuppies....yups.

You're turning into a pathetic, sad travesty of your former self.

Yet another yuppie-fixated alter-ego of the truly obsessed Anna Key duly banned again.

 

[tarannau]

I've checked with planning committee. The application was voted through.

Has anyone mentioned yet that most, if not all, of these flats will go to white yuppies, given the small size of the black London middle class?

Let's check in 18 months time. You just need to stand outside at 6pm and watch the poor darlings come and go.

And we mustn't criticise them. They don't mean any harm. To criticise a yupp is to compare him or her to a holocaust victim (copyright see above).

And the presence of Brixton yups are why Nelson Mandella came to Brixton. To argue for white yuppies to infest "luxury appartments" by Brixton tube. Why else would he bother? Surely he's not interested in social justice?

I heard him say similar things in Trafalgar Square last week, to a doting crowd of 20,000 yups.

Out of interest, would you argue for race-specific social housing then? Or would you insist on the free-market offering differentiated costs for ethnic minorities or proven locals? I'm trying to get at understanding why you thought it would be constructive to bring in race for this specific example.

Welcome back AnnaKey btw...

 

[Giles]

I've just remembered seeing some statistic somewhere about vast increases in single-person households over the last few years. This no doubt helps explain the ridiculous costs of bedsits and small flats, demand outstripping supply and all that. Not sure the authors explained why there had been the increase though.

Thinking back over my 44 years I have seen a significant change in home ownership habits - when I was a teenager I remember thinking that owning (or even renting) your own flat or house went with marriage (which I anticipated may cause me some local difficulty... ).

There is a trend towards more single-person "households". I think that this is one of the reasons for the shortage, and hence higher price, of housing.

People are tending to "settle down" and/or marry later in life, which means that there is a longer period of people wanting to live on their own. Add to that the increasingly temporary nature of people's relationships and you have a big increase in the number of "households" even if not in the actual number of people.

I think that the cheapest way to live in London (squatting aside, obviously) is for a group of friends to rent a biggish house - the "cost per bedroom" ends up a lot less than for renting a one bed flat, and bigger places often have more living rooms and better facilities anyway. The same works for buying places as well - one beds are the most expensive in terms of "cost per room".

Giles..

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Well obviously. Undesirable situations are less expensive than desirable situations.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

I certainly wouldn't want to flatshare. It's OK(ish) if you're young, but once you're over 35 you've had enough of pubes in the sugar bowl and terse notes over the washing-up.
In fact flatshares are dreadful. All my worst experiences have been in shared flats.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Quite. And if you're not a party type it's intolerable.