Yet another US college gun slaughter - "at least 10" killed in Oregan shooting

[Yuwipi Woman]

It seems pretty obvious that it's not just about gun ownership, and about a whole raft of other cultural, economic and political problems. If there is a solution to be had, it must tackle everything, which of course includes what regulations should be on the ownership of firearms and the types of firearms in the first place. But that means little if you don't also address the ingrained belief in the right to bear arms and the ideological position that stems from. Which in turn means a pretty hefty and heartfelt look at the whole Founding Fathers bullshit as well. That in itself is a momentous task that I can't see being broached any time soon. It's so intrinsically tied to narratives around freedom, self-determination, the place Americans* view themselves as holding in the world, as well as the constant politicking back and forth by the Dems and GOP. That's before we get to the power the NRA holds, and how you begin to tackle that in a society that has such a strong libertarian bent and views unregulated capitalism as an expression of their inherent freedom.


*#notallamericans

From a purely social perspective, our gun murders are evidence of deeper social problems. A lot of the men who do this (and they are almost all men) fail to make the transition from dependency to full adulthood. If you look closely they generally have a history of social failure, depression, and isolation long before the shooting. We need to do better job of helping them find constructive pathways to adulthood. I see a lot of young men who find themselves 30 years old and still living at home. (I've heard more than one mother suggest that she was afraid of what her son might do.) The disparity between their expectations and the realities they encounter aren't good. I suspect the US will have even more of a challenge dealing with that than we do with gun control.

 

[8ball]

From a purely social perspective, our gun murders are evidence of deeper social problems. A lot of the men who do this (and they are almost all men) fail to make the transition from dependency to full adulthood. If you look closely they generally have a history of social failure, depression, and isolation long before the shooting. We need to do better job of helping them find constructive pathways to adulthood. I see a lot of young men who find themselves 30 years old and still living at home. (I've heard more than one mother suggest that she was afraid of what her son might do.) The disparity between their expectations and the realities they encounter aren't good. I suspect the US will have even more of a challenge dealing with that than we do with gun control.

This particular problem is not confined to the USA, though. Whereas the mass shootings overwhelmingly are.

 

[Pickman's model]

From a purely social perspective, our gun murders are evidence of deeper social problems. A lot of the men who do this (and they are almost all men) fail to make the transition from dependency to full adulthood. If you look closely they generally have a history of social failure, depression, and isolation long before the shooting. We need to do better job of helping them find constructive pathways to adulthood. I see a lot of young men who find themselves 30 years old and still living at home. (I've heard more than one mother suggest that she was afraid of what her son might do.) The disparity between their expectations and the realities they encounter aren't good. I suspect the US will have even more of a challenge dealing with that than we do with gun control.

herr 30 no longer unusual for people to be still at home.

 

[TomUS]

It's not necessary or practical to ban all guns in America. What's needed is some common sense regulations. End the gun show loophole. Treat guns like cars....licensing & registration. Anyone wanting a gun should be required to get a license that would require a background check and the completion of a gun safety training class. Require that all guns be registered so their ownership can be tracked. This would be a good start.

 

[MrsDoyle]

it's interesting that the people calling shrillest for the americans to implement gun control have no evident link with the united states.

How is that even relevant? Do we have to prove that we have a 'link', no wait; 'an evident link' to the US to be offended by unnecessary deaths and the far reaching social/emotional aftermath of that? To care whether or not this keeps happening, to be human?

Oh I'm sorry Mr Pickman I'll come back later to foil your testosterone soaked pissing contest with my namby pamby fluffy logic about fewer opportunities to kill mean fewer deaths when I've fully researched my family tree to find out which of my staunchly European ancestors must have fucked a native American so I can be allowed to have an opinion...because that's what you mean right? By 'evident link' to the US? I mean it has to be; or did you mean an evident link to a European immigrant to the US some generations prior? Which would of course just mean a European with a funny accent and half a brain... *facepalm*

 

[Idris2002]

This is a quote from the final link I shared earlier, the Washington Post article, it echoes the very simple premise that is constant throughout any meaningful dialogue about gun control; fewer guns and ammunition in circulation gives fewer opportunities for them to be used nefariously:

"Of course, we know one thing that could be done: We could admit that there are too many guns and get serious about reducing their number. These child-deaths are a uniquely American problem; in other countries, simply accepting such an endless string of accidental killings would be unthinkable. And as the child accident statistics have poured in, so have those on the efficacy of gun control: It’s becoming harder and harder to deny that more guns equals more violence. We also know that massive restrictions can have major positive effects. The word “Australia” is verboten among the gun rights crowd now that Australia has succeeded in cutting its firearm death rate by 59 percent after passing sweeping prohibitions on gun ownership. In fact, the Australian case offers such rock solid evidence of the life-saving potential of gun control that the pro-gun side has struggled to offer any response, except to yelp, “But you’re talking about confiscation!” (To which one might reply: “And?”) So there is a way to avoid having our preschools look like a Peckinpah film. It just involves some tough measures."

Which will never happen because the American "left" are WEAK, and would rather be the spineless enablers of the gun nuts and wingnuts, who know that they can take the piss because the liberals will be too busy trying to "be the change they want to see in the world".

 

[sim667]

It's not necessary or practical to ban all guns in America. What's needed is some common sense regulations. End the gun show loophole. Treat guns like cars....licensing & registration. Anyone wanting a gun should be required to get a license that would require a background check and the completion of a gun safety training class. Require that all guns be registered so their ownership can be tracked. This would be a good start.

A yearly psychological and handling test!

 

[Idris2002]

herr 30 no longer unusual for people to be still at home.

And that's not a good thing in UK, either.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

This particular problem is not confined to the USA, though. Whereas the mass shootings overwhelmingly are.

I wonder if those countries have the overbearing sense of entitlement that seems epidemic here. We also have an attitude that if you just work hard enough you'll get everything you ever wanted. It just ain't so, especially when your minimum wage jobs don't pay enough to keep a single person housed a fed.

In any case, gun regulation will have to be part of the solution.

 

[TomUS]

A yearly psychological and handling test!

Not yearly. When a gun changes hands.

 

[8ball]

I wonder if those countries have the overbearing sense of entitlement that seems epidemic here. We also have an attitude that if you just work hard enough you'll get everything you ever wanted.

It's a funny kind of sense of entitlement.
We have a similar kind of thing going on here, but it doesn't involve the work.

 

[phildwyer]

Yes, let's talk about Canada. Why do they have disproportionately fewer mass shootings there? Doesn't that support my argument that the cause is more complex than simply the number of guns per capita?

Yep.

I've noted before that, empirically speaking, the evidence suggests that gun prohibition leads to more gun crime. Countries with strict anti-guns laws (eg Jamaica) tend to have massive amounts of gun crime, while countries which recognize the right to bear arms (eg Switzerland) tend to have very little gun crime. Even within the USA this is true of states (compare New York with Arizona etc).

So the empirical evidence is unambiguously against gun prohibition. That's before we begin to discuss the right to self-defense, to resist tyranny etc. I understand it's easy to have an emotional reaction to events like this, but prohibition is not the answer.

 

[weltweit]

Yep.

I've noted before that, empirically speaking, the evidence suggests that gun prohibition leads to more gun crime. Countries with strict anti-guns laws (eg Jamaica) tend to have massive amounts of gun crime, while countries which recognize the right to bear arms (eg Switzerland) tend to have very little gun crime. Even within the USA this is true of states (compare New York with Arizona etc).

So the empirical evidence is unambiguously against gun prohibition. That's before we begin to discuss the right to self-defense, to resist tyranny etc. I understand it's easy to have an emotional reaction to events like this, but prohibition is not the answer.

I thought we already proved this line was bollocks on another thread!

 

[phildwyer]

You, Athos, have a pathetic macho fantasy of being a revolutionary people's fighter. . . if you knew what that really meant, if you knew what it was like to be trapped in a situation where men with guns (including yourself) are fighting over the corpse of what was once a society, you wouldn't hold on to that fantasy. Or maybe you're so fucked in the head you would hold on to it.

The idea that advocates of the second amendment are motivated by psychological deficiencies is really stupid. That's far more likely to be true of its opponents, many of whom appear positively phobic about guns. Read Freud on the subject.

 

[phildwyer]

it's interesting that the people calling shrillest for the americans to implement gun control have no evident link with the united states.

Pickers makes an excellent point. The world turned upside down.

 

[phildwyer]

yeh i know you're irish. we've all got family in the united states but you don't see all of us saying 'we know best for the united states'. i've certainly never heard my relatives there saying either 'after all these awful things we really need strict gun control' or 'we need people on your side of the pond to raise this issue on interwebnet forums'.

Aye. There is very little support for gun prohibition in the USA. That's why it ain't happening. That's also why proponents of gun prohibition tend to be those who think (and frequently say) that Americans are stupid. Examples abound on here.

But in reality Americans are anything but stupid. They understand the pros and cons of gun ownership very well. Their support for the second amendment is well-informed and entirely rational.

 

[phildwyer]

I'm not calling for Americans to do anything, and I doubt they could even enforce gun control if they wanted to. I just find the nonsense about "I need my guns to protect against tyranny" . . . irritating.

You find it irritating for your own weird emotional reasons.

It's people liked you who refused to arm the people in the Spanish Republic, thus ensuring its defeat.

 

[Idris2002]

You find it irritating for your own weird emotional reasons.

It's people liked you who refused to arm the people in the Spanish Republic, thus ensuring its defeat.

You're good value, I'll give you that!

If the NRA were transported back to Spain '36, they'd be Francoists.

 

[likesfish]

Problem is if the obama turned even more evil muslim commie than be is already not only would the army back him but you'd get some patrotic paramilitary like the uda not really under control or doing anything useful just adding to the bodycount see columbia etc etc strangely the milita movements never mention that outcome . Somebody used pictures from the chilian coup of what happens if your milita goes up against an army you die. But they were commies no full blooded MURICANS

US gunlaws are so slack was on a board where somebody was asking how to operate the semi automatic ak47 he'd just brough and how to unfold the stock !
Fortunatly another board member was local to him and took him to the range where he could learn to operate his new toy safely.
You really shouldnt be able to get hold of a semi automatic rifle with out the basics of safe operation of said weapon

 

[Idris2002]

You really shouldnt be able to get hold of a semi automatic rifle with out the basics of safe operation of said weapon

Or maybe you should said Charles Darwin, who was looking over my shoulder just now.

 

[likesfish]

Unfortunatly even a 7.62 ak round will happily go through you a brick wall and somebody else .
So unfortunatly its not just a darwin problem

 

[Idris2002]

Unfortunatly even a 7.62 ak round will happily go through you a brick wall and somebody else .
So unfortunatly its not just a darwin problem

You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.

 

[J Ed]

From a purely social perspective, our gun murders are evidence of deeper social problems. A lot of the men who do this (and they are almost all men) fail to make the transition from dependency to full adulthood. If you look closely they generally have a history of social failure, depression, and isolation long before the shooting. We need to do better job of helping them find constructive pathways to adulthood. I see a lot of young men who find themselves 30 years old and still living at home. (I've heard more than one mother suggest that she was afraid of what her son might do.) The disparity between their expectations and the realities they encounter aren't good. I suspect the US will have even more of a challenge dealing with that than we do with gun control.

I agree with this. I think that the sheer number, and it is increasing, of mass shootings points to serious social problems as much as it does gun ownership. The US is where neoliberalism is at its most advanced and brutal stage in the West, particularly for the young, but it is also a place where traditional safety valves (social democratic politics, trade unions etc) have been most repressed. For a lot of Americans, particularly young Americans, imagining a world beyond neoliberalism is impossible because they don't know anything else. If you believe that you are in a meritocracy and you are unable to find a job, or a job that you can tolerate then that anger has to go somewhere and it does.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

If you believe that you are in a meritocracy and you are unable to find a job, or a job that you can tolerate then that anger has to go somewhere and it does.

I think this is the reason why most of the shooters are white. Only whites have the luxury of believing we live in a meritocracy. You're not nearly so pissed off when you get shit on if you've been expecting it.

 

[brogdale]

"Stuff happens"

This is the outrageous way Jeb Bush just summed up the Oregon massacre

ffs

 

[tony.c]

He admired the IRA. His MySpace acct had photos of them.

They showed that on Channel 4 News. His username was IRONCROSS45, which seems to be a reference to the Nazi medal.

 

[Idris2002]

They showed that on Channel 4 News. His username was IRONCROSS45, which seems to be a reference to the Nazi medal.

He probably thought the 'ra were Scottish.

 

[tony.c]

He probably thought the 'ra were Scottish.

He had the front page of An Phoblacht on his page.

 

[Idris2002]

He had the front page of An Phoblacht on his page.

Obviously an ardent proponent of all things Shinner. My point was that even if he didn't confuse spud-eaters with haggis-munchers, his knowledge of Irish politics is likely to have been limited at best.

 

[tony.c]

Seems to have been due more to his liking of images of men with guns than the politics.