Yes/No to AV - Urban Votes

[butchersapron]

Must. Stop. Arguing with editors friends on facebook

Fuck 'em. Wipe them out.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Oh noes! Let her know that Disco Dave is a fan of Benny Hill - it just might change her mind

Nah. She's not for turning.

 

[Streathamite]

Smaller parties can't be any more locked out than they are under FPTP.

I dare say Caroline Lucas wouldn't agree! (ditto supporters of Plaid and PC)

AV will lead to less Tory seats, and for that's good enough for me to vote Yes

It might do. Equally, it might lead to more - it depends entirely on the result.
However, it will certainly lead to more Lib Dem MPs - which, right now, means Tory, by another name. In terms of economic policy (i.e. CUTS), you couldn't slip a travelcard between them

 

[butchersapron]

Lucas is, madly enough, supporting AV - the Greens mugged by the lib-dems for fear of not being seen as being on the progressive side. A mistake that tells you all you need to know about the party and what it will do given the chance.

 

[Streathamite]

The conclusion I draw is that your argument is lazy, relying on "tarring with the same brush" for it's effect, rather than on a detailed analysis of why a "no" vote would be wrong.

"If you vote noez, you iz teh Nazis" isn't an argument, it's a playground tantrum.

absolutely! When A8 trotted out that argument for the umpteenth time, I really wanted to garrotte him

 

[Maggot]

Have you been asleep for 12 months? Walking around with your eyes shut? Polls consistently indicate that lib-dem voters would overwhelmingly case their 2nd pref for their governmental coalition partners. What else do you you think they would do given that anything else is a vote against themselves?

I'm talking about people who voted for them at the last election, not the ones who still support them.

Now, why is AV fairer?

see post 82.

 

[editor]

Must. Stop. Arguing with editors friends on facebook

Facebook is absolutely fucking AWFUL for any attempt at informed debate. The few times I've bothered it's always proved a depressingly pointless experience. The last time, the twat I was arguing with just went back and deleted my posts and then closed the thread, after signing off with a "I've won" comment.

 

[kabbes]

I'm talking about people who voted for them at the last election, not the ones who still support them.

The ones who will just vote Labour next time out in any case, you mean?

 

[fractionMan]

Facebook is absolutely fucking AWFUL for any attempt at informed debate. The few times I've bothered it's always proved a depressingly pointless experience. The last time, the twat I was arguing with just went back and deleted my posts and then closed the thread, after signing off with a "I've won" comment.

Yeah, that's happened to me a couple of times recently.

 

[butchersapron]

I'm talking about people who voted for them at the last election, not the ones who still support them.

see post 82.

So you're not talking about lib-dem voters then are you? Your argument was that lib-dem voters in a real future election would not give the tories 2nd pref. But apparently you mean past lib-dem voters in a non-AV election that's already happened. Now you're either talking about lib-dem voters or you're not - which is it? Come on.

Are you going to ell me why you think AV is fairer or not? Are you going to support your assertion or not?

 

[Streathamite]

Lucas is, madly enough, supporting AV - the Greens mugged by the lib-dems for fear of not being seen as being on the progressive side. A mistake that tells you all you need to know about the party and what it will do given the chance.

don't worry, I've no illusions about that lot either

 

[Louis MacNeice]

see post 82.

So in a world where elections only ever take place between two distinct alternatives, and between which there will never be any transfers, AV is fairer; it's neverland politics.

Louis MacNeice

 

[Streathamite]

Do you really think Lib-Dem voters are gonna choose Tory candidates? Most Lib-Dems hate the Tories as much as you do.

but they're in bed with them - right now

 

[kabbes]

I find it utterly inconceivable* that anybody would still claim that the Lib Dems are the enemies of the Tories when they are in a fucking coalition with them. Srs -- wtf?



*(I don't think that word means what you think it means)

 

[Maggot]

So you're not talking about lib-dem voters then are you? Your argument was that lib-dem voters in a real future election would not give the tories 2nd pref. But apparently you mean past lib-dem voters in a non-AV election that's already happened. Now you're either talking about lib-dem voters or you're not - which is it? Come on.

I'm talking about the people who voted Lib Dem in the last election. Of course the ones who still support them are more likely to vote Tory.

Are you going to ell me why you think AV is fairer or not? Are you going to support your assertion or not?

I've supported my assertion in post #82. When have you supported your assertion eh?

 

[kabbes]

I'm talking about the people who voted Lib Dem in the last election. Of course the ones who still support them are more likely to vote Tory.

But these people are not going to vote for the Lib Dems again in any case! So any talk about who they will put as second choice is irrelevant!

 

[fractionMan]

I've supported my assertion in post #82. When have you supported your assertion eh?

No, no you haven't. You've posted a hypothetical fairyland situation involving cats or some shit.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I've supported my assertion in post #82. When have you supported your assertion eh?

And I've just shown why the video is palpable (if entertaining) otherworldly nonsense; so the question stands. In the real world how is AV fairer than FPTP?

Louis MacNeice

 

[danny la rouge]

It is surprising how many people on Facebook are all in a froth over voting yes though. And, yes, it does rather remind me of what happened before the election.

Indeed. It makes you wonder how long some people's memories are!

 

[stethoscope]

All those cat and beer/coffee analogies have offered fuck all to quality of the yes/no debate.

 

[butchersapron]

I'm talking about the people who voted Lib Dem in the last election. Of course the ones who still support them are more likely to vote Tory.

WTF? Your claim wa that an election under AV would return less tories. I said there's no grounds for believing this - that the opposite may well happen because the tories insured themselves by making a gerrymandering deal with the lib-dems as part of the coalition agreement and because the logic of that agreement leads inevitably to the lib-dems and tories reaching some form of informal or informal electoral pact - as is already happening around the country, from the Oldham by-election where the tories voted lib-dem to local wards where lib-dems have decided not to stand in order not to split the anti-labour vote. That was my argument (edit: which you now seem to agree with!). Your response to this was some time-travel nonsense . Can you show where my argument above is wrong or why AV means less tories will be elected. Just make the argument at the very least.

I've supported my assertion in post #82. When have you supported your assertion eh?

Some smug liberal cats is your supporting evidence?

What assertion? Tell me what i've asserted and where i've failed to support it.

 

[WouldBe]

fewer blue tory seats, more yellow tory seats!

or more red tory seats.

 

[danny la rouge]

And I've just shown why the video is palpable (if entertaining) otherworldly nonsense; so the question stands. In the real world how is AV fairer than FPTP?

Louis MacNeice

Indeed. All the evidence shows it is not fairer, and may be less proportional and less fair. It certainly funnels votes to the big parties. After all, that was its purpose when it was implemented in Australia: to raise the hurdle.

 

[kabbes]

I've supported my assertion in post #82. When have you supported your assertion eh?

You do realise that post #82 proves the very opposite, don't you? Because it's the extreme-right that are fragmented (Tories, UKIP, BNP, *current* Lib Dems), not the centre-right (Labour). If your cat analogy does hold then it's the right that are the cats and the not so right that are the dog.

 

[danny la rouge]

You do realise that post #82 proves the very opposite, don't you? Because it's the extreme-right that are fragmented (Tories, UKIP, BNP, *current* Lib Dems), not the centre-right (Labour). If your cat analogy does hold then it's the right that are the cats and the not so right that are the dog.

It's amazing, isn't it, when Change and Hope push Understanding and Critical Faculties out of the door?

 

[WouldBe]

Your argument was that lib-dem voters in a real future election would not give the tories 2nd pref.

I voted lib dems last time and I certainly wouldn't give the tories my 2nd vote. After the mess labour made of the country I wouldn't be giving them the 2nd vote either.

 

[fractionMan]

Would you vote lib dem again?

 

[ska invita]

Although im against AV - its the worst of all the options, and gives the big 3 more credibility (because they can claim getting 50% of the vote), im giong to piss in the wind and vote yes, just on the off chance that it happens. If it does happen everyone'll be pissed off with it before too long and there'll be another referendum and there might finally be a chance to get PR, or even AV+ on the cards.

 

[danny la rouge]

Would you vote lib dem again?

Perhaps the most important question of our time.

 

[danny la rouge]

Although im against AV - its the worst of all the options, and gives the big 3 more credibility (because they can claim getting 50% of the vote), im giong to piss in the wind and vote yes, just on the off chance that it happens. If it does happen everyone'll be pissed off with it before too long and there'll be another referendum and there might finally be a chance to get PR, or even AV+ on the cards.

High risk strategy: Australia has had AV since the early 1920s.