Workers Power have split

[Delroy Booth]

Workers Power must be in a bad way at the moment. First the old duffers left, now the kids.

Would the "old duffers" be Permanent Revolution by any chance?

 

[frogwoman]

never mind that if you have not looked at revleft you have not seen anything about people in left wing groups being completely unaware of anything to do with how unimportant they are and how everyone would think they were an idiot. There is page after page on there about people going on about the most irrleevant crap. There was some arguement from this "left communist" about how Trotsky should not have supported the Second World War and the USSR defending itself against Hitler, because fascism was essentially no different to capitalism. Utter shite, I am sure there are reasons to criticise Trotsky for but saying that the USSR should not have fought against Hitler because of some ultra left book full of bollocks is the worst reason I've ever heard.

And the meat vs vegetarain arguement is fucking hilarious some of the people actually think that people who eat meat are class traitors or something.

 

[butchersapron]

As an aside, Arthur Deane, one of the founders of the RCP in 1945, died recently. Any sectologist would know about his family and their involvement with the Trotskyist movement in Britain.

Brother of Jimmy and Briane, son of Gertie. The kids turning her into a trotskysist rather than the other way round.

 

[audiotech]

That was basically the case for working class SWP members as well.

Not allowed to read Socialist Worker online?

Here's Duncan Hallas, from a working class background, on the internet. Working class members of the SWP not allowed to read, or listen to Hallas?

https://epress.anu.edu.au/archive/hallas/

 

[Joe Reilly]

never mind that if you have not looked at revleft you have not seen anything about people in left wing groups being completely unaware of anything to do with how unimportant they are and how everyone would think they were an idiot. There is page after page on there about people going on about the most irrleevant crap. There was some arguement from this "left communist" about how Trotsky should not have supported the Second World War and the USSR defending itself against Hitler, because fascism was essentially no different to capitalism. Utter shite, I am sure there are reasons to criticise Trotsky for but saying that the USSR should not have fought against Hitler because of some ultra left book full of bollocks is the worst reason I've ever heard.

You'd love a wanker like that to end up in the camps in place of some poor bastard that didn't deserve to.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

To be honest my experience of people in far left groups is that they live in a bubble world in quite a few cases, and their humour about the left is largely about other groups, even though the sect they are in has exactly the same problems.

You need to get out a bit more.

 

[discokermit]

Not allowed to read Socialist Worker online?

Here's Duncan Hallas, from a working class background, on the internet. Working class members of the SWP not allowed to read, or listen to Hallas?

https://epress.anu.edu.au/archive/hallas/

it's been dealt with. read the whole thread.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Would the "old duffers" be Permanent Revolution by any chance?

Yep.

 

[SpineyNorman]

never mind that if you have not looked at revleft you have not seen anything about people in left wing groups being completely unaware of anything to do with how unimportant they are and how everyone would think they were an idiot. There is page after page on there about people going on about the most irrleevant crap. There was some arguement from this "left communist" about how Trotsky should not have supported the Second World War and the USSR defending itself against Hitler, because fascism was essentially no different to capitalism. Utter shite, I am sure there are reasons to criticise Trotsky for but saying that the USSR should not have fought against Hitler because of some ultra left book full of bollocks is the worst reason I've ever heard.

And the meat vs vegetarain arguement is fucking hilarious some of the people actually think that people who eat meat are class traitors or something.

Best thread I ever saw on there was "are migrant workers all the same as scabs" or something like that. I don't think it was a troll thread but if it was it was genius.

 

[frogwoman]

Yeah I asked one of them whether if there was no choice, they would rather kill and eat a human or a chicken and they couldn't answer the question! they eventually said "the chicken because it would be easier to cook"

 

[Pickman's model]

oh god i caused a massive arguement on revleft on a thread called "Are meat workers counter revolutionary"? There was also another arguement where someone in an irish republican group who had been tortured or something and some of the people on there were going on about how to oppose it was "supporting nationalism" or some shit

some time ago i was in derry and got talking to one of the american swp i knew to say hello to from london, and it turned out he'd been sent off to somewhere in scotland to work in the meatpacking industry

 

[audiotech]

Not quite. SWP members were forbidden from participating in a particular internet discussion forum at some point in the mid 1990s. They weren't forbidden from being on the internet!

They do have something of a cultural opposition to internet forums though. It's not a rule, but their members rarely participate in online discussion outside of their house blog Lenin's Tomb.

There are a quite a number of Individual SWP members and branches who have a presence on facebook.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

You lot are making RevLeft seem like more fun than it actually is.

 

[discokermit]

Yeah I asked one of them whether if there was no choice, they would rather kill and eat a human or a chicken and they couldn't answer the question! they eventually said "the chicken because it would be easier to cook"

i would kill them both. a chicken isn't going to last long, especially between two people.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yeah I asked one of them whether if there was no choice, they would rather kill and eat a human or a chicken and they couldn't answer the question! they eventually said "the chicken because it would be easier to cook"

human's pretty easy too in all honesty

 

[frogwoman]

You lot are making RevLeft seem like more fun than it actually is.

I could literlaly not believe the human vs chicken thing. I could not believe that somebody could not answer the question of whether they would kill and eat a human or a chicken!

Do you post on there then? I have a feeling I know who you are on there if you do!

 

[Nigel Irritable]

There are a quite a number of Individual SWP members and branches who have a presence on facebook.

That's true, although it's quite a recent departure.

Facebook became a bit problematic here for a while because due to the ULA a bunch of SWP and SP members were becoming facebook friends and then squabbling about stupid stuff. It's one thing to do that here, where nobody who isn't already interested in far left stuff is reading. It's quite another thing to do it in front of everyone's friends and family.

 

[audiotech]

it's been dealt with. read the whole thread.

My eyes are glazing over.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I could literlaly not believe the human vs chicken thing. I could not believe that somebody could not answer the question of whether they would kill and eat a human or a chicken!

Do you post on there then? I have a feeling I know who you are on there if you do!

Nope. It makes me feel old.

 

[frogwoman]

That's true, although it's quite a recent departure.

Facebook became a bit problematic here for a while because due to the ULA a bunch of SWP and SP members were becoming facebook friends and then squabbling about stupid stuff. It's one thing to do that here, where nobody who isn't already interested in far left stuff is reading. It's quite another thing to do it in front of everyone's friends and family.

I cant stand political arguements on my facebook wall I just delete them, the stalinist that i am

 

[JimW]

Why hasn't P&P been closed for the day to mark this tragedy for the working class?

 

[audiotech]

That's true, although it's quite a recent departure.

Facebook became a bit problematic here for a while because due to the ULA a bunch of SWP and SP members were becoming facebook friends and then squabbling about stupid stuff. It's one thing to do that here, where nobody who isn't already interested in far left stuff is reading. It's quite another thing to do it in front of everyone's friends and family.

There's not much debate I've found.

 

[frogwoman]

Nope. It makes me feel old.

oh ok, i was convinced that you did and that i had worked out who you were on there.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

You need to get out a bit more.

Maybe, but members of far left sects need to get out even more I suspect. Look at the ridiculous knowledge that far left members on here have of every split ever gone on, I don't know whether it's funny or tragic.

They will carry on going round and round in dwindling circles, but in the process do real damage to things like the anti-cuts movement and trying to get a decent grass roots organisations in the unions. The fact that they represent socialist ideas, makes socialism a joke unfortunatley.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

There's not much debate I've found.

My impression is that English socialists are quite unlikely to be facebook friends with many people in other left groups. It's different over here, partly because of the ULA and partly because the left is generally a bit less focused on the unending sectarian war of all against all. A side-effect of that is that there's much more opportunity for people to act the maggot.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Maybe, but members of far left sects need to get out even more I suspect. Look at the ridiculous knowledge that far left members on here have of every split ever gone on, I don't know whether it's funny or tragic.

That's no more or less absurd than any other slightly unusual hobby. It could be stamp collecting or building model railroads.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Maybe, but members of far left sects need to get out even more I suspect. Look at the ridiculous knowledge that far left members on here have of every split ever gone on, I don't know whether it's funny or tragic.

In my defense, I'd be interested in this kind of sectarian party political stuff regardless of whether I was in any kind of organization. I'm just a politics geek, these things interest me, what more can I say?

 

[audiotech]

My impression is that English socialists are quite unlikely to be facebook friends with many people in other left groups. It's different over here, partly because of the ULA and partly because the left is generally a bit less focused on the unending sectarian war of all against all. A side-effect of that is that there's much more opportunity for people to act the maggot.

There are some (a fair few I've seen) who are with other left groups and Labour party members here.

 

[frogwoman]

i've got a few swp etc members on my facebook mostly through anti cuts stuff and demos. i used to make jokes about the swp on there but i don't usually now because i feel bad about upsetting somebody who may be reading. i also don't really think there's much point, like you say nigel a lot of that stuff just tends to put people off. (and your friends and family may look at it and think you're a twat)

 

[SpineyNorman]

My impression is that English socialists are quite unlikely to be facebook friends with many people in other left groups. It's different over here, partly because of the ULA and partly because the left is generally a bit less focused on the unending sectarian war of all against all. A side-effect of that is that there's much more opportunity for people to act the maggot.

I think it depends where you live - it's not too bad here, we're cooperating quite well on a few initiatives and I've got a few SWP on my facebook. I only tend to use it as a communication tool though, don't often get into discussions on there, so I've not had the kind of problems you describe.