One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
Indeed it does. And probably the very same jokes could be made about the Socialist Party or whoever else.
Workers Power have split
- Thread starter Red Storm
- Start date
Indeed it does. And probably the very same jokes could be made about the Socialist Party or whoever else.
SpineyNorman
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Yeah, plus chances are you're gonna have to work with them in the future and stuff like that makes it way harder.
SpineyNorman
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I don't think it's quite that simple. The jokes about the SWP that I hear tend to be about them all being middle class and wearing Palestinian scarves and hunting for wacists, sexists and homophobes where there aren't any.
The jokes about us that I hear are that we're all sexists with fake scouse accents.
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
Maybe the jokes change for each sect between the sects, but essentially they are all the same. The vast majority of people have never even heard of any of them, and those that have don't distinguish between one and another, they just think they are all a joke. I took people from work to both COR and NSSN events and in the case of COR they never did anything (after what seemed like quite a good conference of over 1000) so no-one got involved and in the case of the NSSN there was a massive bun fight where people were splitting minor political differences in justifying why we all had to be in a seperate group. I had to buy them all a drink to apologise for taking them there.
I don't see what's absurd about it at all. I'm interested in Social History, that's what interests me in life, and so surely someone who's interested in that sort of thing would be interested in obscure left-wing political groups and stuff? I mean if you went into a history department of a university, and saw them studying crop rotation records from 16th century shropshire, would that be considered absurd too?
There's also another facet to this, which is socialsts of my generation are faced with a real problem with where they should devote their energies today. The Labour Party is a no-go. Been there, tried that, failed miserably. Left groups? Hopeless. Embittered and sectarian, wedded to a view of the world which belongs in the 1920's. UKUncut and Occupy? Far too liberal, far to peacable, and detached from any serious, long-term, political project. Anarchism? Every bit as sectarian as the standard left in my experiences, with exceptions. I also don't believe it's actually possible to destroy the mechanisms of neo-liberal capitalism without having a huge amount of power, the ruling class won't give up without a fight y'know. I have this horrible feeling that the horizontal loose networks and federations of sovereign individuals would be smashed to pieces by the forces of capital and the state if they ever got into a position where they do pose a threat. There's a reason the only "successful" revolutions in history have been highly disciplined, heirachical organizations, because something like that might be what's needed to destroy capitalism and overthrow the state. It's also the reason why pretty much all the attempts at revolutionary communism have, in practice, ended in failure and bloodbath. So I don't think there's an answer along anarchist lines either.
It puts people like me, and other young (under 25 if that still counts as young) socialists in an awful position. We're gonna have to begin the long, arduous process of re-established new ideas and new organizations to carry those idea's out into the public, as the generations prior to us have preferred to live in total denial. A working knowledge of where organizations have failed in the past would no doubt help in avoiding those mistakes in the future.
It's also pretty funny too, some of the crankish stuff i've heard these left wing groups get upto deserve their own sitcom.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Speaking of trivial splits, Workers Power actually had another couple of splits recently. They kicked out two people at their conference the other week who were involved in some kind of discussion process for random mentals organised by Socialist Fight. They also had a split in their Austrian section to found some new group called the Revolutionary Communist International Tendency, which apparently has a couple of British supporters. Amazing name by the way, but spoiled a bit by its relative brevity. It's the sort of name that should have at least seven words in it.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Who are socialist fight? There is some mental guy on my facebook who thinks that Russia and all other eastern block countries are still all somehow stalinist. He wrote a blog entry where he actually criticised me among other wordy polemics for "accommodating to liberal bourgeois nationalism" for being a fan of England on facebook!
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
You don't think it's absurd to be interested in what lies behind the split of the Revolutionary Communist Internationalist Tendency from the League for the Fifth International? Because I am and I do.
Delroy Booth said:
Exactly.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
A lad who used to be in the WRP and some of his imaginary friends.
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
Some good points Delroy. I also share that problem of where to devote energies. I do a lot of trade union and anti-cuts work but I know far more than that is needed. I still totally believe in socialist/marxist ideas, and it saddens me that the current crop of joke groups who say they represent those ideas are what is out there. Not only do they fail to get anywhere, they also fuck up stuff like the anti-cuts movement. The problem is though, where to go as a socialist to get more involved, and at the moment I don't know.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
This is a bit bizarre. The left groups haven't screwed up the anti-cuts movement at all - they don't really have the power to do so, and to be blunt about it, most people who might go on anti-cuts protest neither know nor care about the existence of three different national anti-cuts campaigns. The trade union leaders screwed up the anti-cuts movement. You are mistaking things you find irritating for things that really matter.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
and those would only be the true bits
Yeah I reckon we're in the same boat tell you the truth. In the meantime I'll work with the unions and go so far as to support TUSC electorally, just because there's absolutely fuck all else out there, but blatantly we're at a point where we can't just go on as this indefinitely.
JimW
支那暗杀团
Didn't Lenin of the Rovers work a bit like that? Memory a bit dim.
To be honest they've not exactly been helpful though, have they? Last years NCAFC conference ended up a total farce.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
But the NCAFC doesn't matter. So really, what difference does it make if its conference is a notch sillier or a notch less silly?
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
The same could be said for the SWP, Socialist Party or any other of the dozens of far left groups.
Don't agree at all. The left divided already very small numbers of activists in to three different national groups (Right to Work, Coalition of Resistance and NSSN). They did on the basis of minor political differences so they could have their own fronts. If they had had a united national federation and not being total and utter idiots in so many of the local groups then I think it could have had a big difference. Not saying it would have been a game changer necessarily but it would have made a real difference and at least given things much more of a chance. I saw left groups tear local anti-cuts groups apart with their bickering and sectarianism.
Obviously the trade union bureaucrats screwed things up on a larger scale, but that's what you would expect them to do, I'd hope from better from socialist groups.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
yeah, i'm sure that same thing could go for the SP and SWP, i'd love to see a sitcom like that it wouldn't offend me in the least. I'd love to see any kind of televisual representation of trots tbf that wasn't just someone in the news quoting what government ministers had said about it. like a romantic comedy or a chick flick lol
If Chris Morris is looking for idea's to do a follow-up to Four Lions then he'd do a lot worse than checking out this thread.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
This is just nonsense. The national groups had very little impact on anything, and, given that the trade union leaders drastically undermined the whole movement, a single national group would probably have had very little impact on anything too. As for the local groups, sure there was some stupid squabbling, and there were also arguments about things that weren't stupid at all - like what attitude to take towards Labour locally.
About all the "three rival national campaigns" did was organise a small number of protests and conferences. Which was broadly speaking a good thing, but not one that had much of an impact.
SpineyNorman
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I'm sorry, while I agree that all the groups have their own eccentricities and are funny in a way they don't intend to me, if you genuinely think that a sitcom about the SP or SWP would be as funny as one about the sparts or the posadists, or they're even nearly as mental, then you've probably gone just a few steps too far along the plague on both your houses path.
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
SpineyNorman
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Now that would be a fucking good film.
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