Woolwich soldier killed (was "Did cops just shoot 2 dead in woolwich?")

[littlebabyjesus]

UCL Islamic Society has long been worrying. They were pulled up a couple of years ago for not allowing women to speak at meetings. If a woman had something to say, she had to tell a man, who would then say it for her. More recently, Lawrence Krauss walked out of a meeting arranged by them because they insisted on segregated seating.

 

[butchersapron]

no i dont, i think it is larger and more visible.

So why did you say what you said? That the edl presents a real ongoing threat whereas radical islam presents a tiny threat (wer're talking relatively here, in comparison to each other). Why say that?


I tell you what, most of the left this week have dug that trench between them and the class that little bit deeper and that little bit wider this week. Precisely through stuff like the above.

 

[butchersapron]

yes i know. they are twats. but they dont actually DO anything do they apart from preach to the converted. 'It's only tiny and invisible to people because those who should look refuse to.' like who?

You. The left groups on campus.

 

[malatesta32]

i am saying that the threat is visible than the reality appears to be. yes there are a few examples and they are twats. these things are very difficult to police as they are lone operators. however, do you not feel there is a political reason behind inflating the threat as well as job creation in the security services?

 

[malatesta32]

i said 'maybe because the 'islamic threat' is so tiny and practically invisible whereas the EDL are a pissed bunch of racists presenting an immediate threat to public order' and therefore easier to police.

 

[malatesta32]

is the reason why so few islamic twats have been arrested is cos there are so few?

 

[J Ed]

i am saying that the threat is visible than the reality appears to be. yes there are a few examples and they are twats. these things are very difficult to police as they are lone operators. however, do you not feel there is a political reason behind inflating the threat as well as job creation in the security services?

If there were groups on campus where right-wing students were listening year after year to preachers who called for the death of Muslims would that be a tiny and almost invisible problem if it (mostly) wasn't acted upon?

 

[malatesta32]

You. The left groups on campus.

no J ED said that.

 

[malatesta32]

i cant speak for students but if there were loads of islamics surely there would be loads of arrests. there isnt. so therefore the facts appear that perhaps it isnt that large a threat. tho obviously lone wolves can still operate.

 

[butchersapron]

i am saying that the threat is visible than the reality appears to be. yes there are a few examples and they are twats. these things are very difficult to police as they are lone operators. however, do you not feel there is a political reason behind inflating the threat as well as job creation in the security services?

Inflating the threat? You've spent two years running after the edl offering to blow up their balloons. I'm shaking my head here - what do you think happened this week? I'm not talking about the policing here btw - i'm talking about the politics of it. These non-threatening fundies managed to do in a few hours exactly what the edl could not in a few years.

 

[cesare]

Let's not forget Kollerstrom and UCL, too.

 

[butchersapron]

no J ED said that.

You asked who the groups being ignored on campus should have been visible to. I replied: You and the left groups on campus.

 

[treelover]

If there were groups on campus where right-wing students were listening year after year to preachers who called for the death of Muslims would that be a tiny and almost invisible problem if it (mostly) wasn't acted upon?

yes, Harrington was one person and he had half the college on his back, doesn't wash.

 

[malatesta32]

butchers, how big do you think the islamic threat is. the reason why antifascists chase fascists is because we are antifascists, thats what we do. the islamic thing demands completely different strategies.

 

[malatesta32]

You asked who the groups being ignored on campus should have been visible to. I replied: You and the left groups on campus.

oh i see, apologies.

 

[malatesta32]

You asked who the groups being ignored on campus should have been visible to. I replied: You and the left groups on campus.

i have no influence over any campus so i am not sure what i am supposed to do.

 

[J Ed]

butchers, how big do you think the islamic threat is. the reason why antifascists chase fascists is because we are antifascists, thats what we do. the islamic thing demands completely different strategies.

Are these people really so different from fascists? They seem to be espousing exactly the same sorts of beliefs to me. I think we should treat homophobia, misogyny and religious sectarianism with exactly the same intolerance regardless of who it is coming from both because that is the right thing to do and because tactically if you don't you're not only aiding the Islamists but also the EDL.

 

[treelover]

@maletesa

Rubbish, you spend exhortionate amount of time, energy, resources, etc attempting to defeat the EDL, often with students help, you have one big blind spot

 

[where to]

butchers, how big do you think the islamic threat is. the reason why antifascists chase fascists is because we are antifascists, thats what we do. the islamic thing demands completely different strategies.

I don't think you have any strategy. You're just responding to emotions.

Have you ever read islamists in their own words? It is honestly very useful.

 

[J Ed]

It's too late now anyway, there is already more than enough here to allow the government to depoliticise and probably abolish student unions. SUs failed to police themselves but the state is going to be more than happy to step into the breach in a way that fucks us all over.

I knew this was going to happen, fucking idiots.

 

[butchersapron]

butchers, how big do you think the islamic threat is. the reason why antifascists chase fascists is because we are antifascists, thats what we do. the islamic thing demands completely different strategies.

The threat to who and what? You must have some basis for deciding the edl are a bigger threat. This week i have seen fundies force racist division to the forefront of any national public politics. The edl spent years trying to do just that and failed utterly. As you have spent week after week documenting. This is why the fundies are a bigger threat to re-establishing class based politics - that's the threat that i'm on about here. What threat are you on about?

 

[malatesta32]

Are these people really so different from fascists? They seem to be espousing exactly the same sorts of beliefs to me. I think we should treat homophobia, misogyny and religious sectarianism with exactly the same intolerance regardless of who it is coming from both because that is the right thing to do and because tactically if you don't you're not only aiding the Islamists but also the EDL.

the way they organise is different, ie in their commnuities, mosques etc. they dont march about and even when choudry has done he has had about 25 bellends - including wives - so they hardly represent a threat to many people's communities directly. im not saying they are not a threat. im trying to get some sense of proportion.

 

[malatesta32]

@maletesa

Rubbish, you spend exhortionate amount of time, energy, resources, etc attempting to defeat the EDL, often with students help, you have one big blind spot

what? i am not a student. i dont work on a campus. i have very few mates who are students. i am glad students turn up at antiEDL things but are you suggesting i have some influence on em? im not quite clear rhere.

 

[J Ed]

the way they organise is different, ie in their commnuities, mosques etc. they dont march about and even when choudry has done he has had about 25 bellends - including wives - so they hardly represent a threat to many people's communities directly. im not saying they are not a threat. im trying to get some sense of proportion.

None of this is true

 

[malatesta32]

I don't think you have any strategy. You're just responding to emotions.

Have you ever read islamists in their own words? It is honestly very useful.

who me personally or antifascists in general? the strategy at the moment is one of swamping areas and surrounding fascists to prevent them moving in the community. brighton this year was testament to that as it was last year with bristol, walth etc. and there were lots of students there too i am glad to say.

 

[malatesta32]

None of this is true[/quote]

'the way they organise is different, ie in their commnuities, mosques etc.'
Mal: they dont let EDL organise in there do they? so true. they dont do big demos. true? they dont march about and even when choudry has done he has had about 25 bellends - including wives - so they hardly represent a threat to many people's communities directly. have yo seen choudrys group? theyre fucken tiny!

 

[where to]

who me personally or antifascists in general? the strategy at the moment is one of swamping areas and surrounding fascists to prevent them moving in the community. brighton this year was testament to that as it was last year with bristol, walth etc. and there were lots of students there too i am glad to say.

That's a tactic, not a strategy.

 

[malatesta32]

the strategy is to outnumber, out propagandise and out organise in your communities

 

[Brainaddict]

JEd, to me it feels kind of superfluous to condemn radical islam - it would be almost ritualistic in a really pointless way. To the people who would listen to me it is already obviously bonkers. Those who are susceptible to it aren't likely to listen to me. I'm kind of happy to leave the battle against extremists to muslims - since they share much more language and have more credibility with the extremists.

I kind of agree with a lot of this post http://scriptonitedaily.wordpress.c...resist-having-our-enemies-constructed-for-us/

Is it guilty of some error for not including a paragraph saying: "Jihadist islam of this extreme type is wrong and so I condemn it and encourage people not to be involved in it"? I don't think it would be a meaningful thing to add to it.

 

[treelover]

So you would let the societies invite the fanatics onto the campuses, sounds like appeasement to me..