Woolwich soldier killed (was "Did cops just shoot 2 dead in woolwich?")

[coley]

This is nuts.

An opinion or the magazine?

 

[butchersapron]

Depends on who you ask, I suppose. The right-wing monitor group I mentioned before has provided pretty persuasive evidence that it's pervasive http://www.studentrights.org.uk/article/2082/report_unequal_opportunity_gender_segregation_on_uk_university_campuses but the NUS seem to think there's nothing to worry about...

Ta. Taking me some time to get my head round this. I'll get there.

 

[coley]

It's to be born in mind though that although they're not new these sectarian tensions have been heightened massively by western intervention - both military and less overt.

Come back to you on that, though I don't totally disagree, slightly pissed at the mo.

 

[Casually Red]

Yeah I do think the motivations are different, though linked in some ways. But having a significant part of the Muslim population with serious grievances against British foreign policy must make it easier for them to hide - just like if the IRA hadn't had so much support among Catholics in NI it would have been easier to deal with them - for various reasons. They might feel more inclined to help them hide, or at least less inclined to inform on them. And I dare say there are some who may express support online etc for these actions but who would never do them (and if they saw it up close would likely be as disgusted as anyone else) - absent these grievances that kind of 'noise' would surely be reduced.

I'm just thinking out loud now by the way, this is probably full of holes.

no, sure thats what im doing here too. just thinking out loud .

But I think the difference here is that the people on the receiving end of the western aggression are on the other side of the world , not in london. Therefore these guys dont really have a host population facing personal suffering to hide among regardless of a shared sense of outrage at foreign events. People being people the vast majority no matter what their opinions on issues usually dont want trouble in a largely peaceful society like Britain. And I suspect thats the sentiments of the vast majority of the muslim community. It certainly was with the Irish community in Britain .
After that debacle in Birmingham in the 1970s that was pretty much lights out for even political Irish republicanism in Britain from then on in. The Irish community simply didnt want to know. I suspect after the events of London the extremists would have gotten similar short shrift from their own muslim communities, thats if they werent getting it even before.

When the IRA launched their prolonged campaign in england in the 80s and 90s it was in the main with sleepers who were largely clean skins, the vast bulk sent from Ireland to blend into the general english population and often with strict instructions to avoid contact with the wider Irish community in Britain. The immigrant or generational Irish community couldnt give information on them because they simply didnt have it to give . However these guys dont seem to have that sort of anonymity, most if not all of them are on the books as extremists to begin with . Even their attire and beards mark them out as devout, as much as from what i can see.

Its hard to know and Im thinking out loud like yourself but it remains to be seen whether the marked switch in tactics, away from mosque based larger groups with grand ambitions of spectacular explosions to more autonmous and focused stuff is the development of a learning curve or as Butchers says a dying kick . Hard to know, but that bit about guns on the streets in the future caught my eye . Maybe it was just bluster, maybe not . Stuff like mumbai came into my head .

But whatever the case these guys will be seen as inspirational by those who for whatever reason are tempted to go down that path . Not just for what they did but more importantly how they acted and spoke afterwards . Therein lies the danger . The would be jihadists dont need touts like choudry and dodgy old jailed clerics for inspiration any more, they have these guys for inspiration now . Young, articulate and doing precisely what they set out to do . Cause mayhem .

 

[J Ed]

I'm just so confused at how much coverage Anjem Choudary is getting. Every single time he gets on TV to spout his unrepresentative bullshit the far-right must get dozens of new recruits at minimum.

 

[Casually Red]

I'm just so confused at how much coverage Anjem Choudary is getting. Every single time he gets on TV to spout his unrepresentative bullshit the far-right must get dozens of new recruits at minimum.

they put him up there for their own reasons, no doubt about it . Youd almost think they were trying to point disaffected muslim youths in his direction...god knows why .

And he does know .

 

[butchersapron]

I'm just so confused at how much coverage Anjem Choudary is getting. Every single time he gets on TV to spout his unrepresentative bullshit the far-right must get dozens of new recruits at minimum.

I think we can vote him off this round. We're past the auditions.

 

[J Ed]

they put him up there for their own reasons, no doubt about it . Youd almost think they were trying to point disaffected muslim youths in his direction...god knows why .

And he does know .

That was what I was thinking, although if this has been their strategy up until now then it's obviously not been a very successful one for keeping tabs on people.

 

[Casually Red]

That was what I was thinking, although if this has been their strategy up until now then it's obviously not been a very successful one for keeping tabs on people.

i think its been quite successful considering your dealing with people who were, up to recently, keen to target the defenceless general civilian population and who often never bothered with the idea of getting away afterwards . The level of success the British authorities have had in preventing what should have been penalty kicks gives me the impression theyve had the upper hand for quite a while .

Thats why the recent success for want of a better term makes me suspect some of these guys might have made a learning curve along the way and cut ties with some of the usual suspects .

 

[butchersapron]

i think its been quite successful considering your dealing with people who were, up to recently, keen to target the defenceless general civilian population and who often never bothered with the idea of getting away afterwards . The level of success the British authorities have had in preventing what should have been penalty kicks gives me the impression theyve had the upper hand for quite a while .

Thats why the recent success for want of a better term makes me suspect some of these guys might have made a learning curve along the way and cut ties with some of the usual suspects .

It's not that hard - leave the shouties alone, don't get seen - and then do it.If they were producing people like themselves, then ok, but....

 

[J Ed]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/24/woolwich-killing-universities-campaign-radicalisation

A fresh drive to prevent radicalisation of impressionable students on campus is being launched in which universities will be asked to draw up guidelines on how to handle preachers who have a track record of inciting hatred, at the end of a dramatic week that saw a soldier murdered in Woolwich in the first terror-related incident on mainland Britain since the 7 July 2005 bombings.
Universities UK, which represents higher education institutions, launched a new campaign in an attempt to show students, unions and academics what they can do to constrain controversial preachers.

Ministers are reluctant to reach for a barrage of new legislation in the wake of the terrorist murder of a soldier outside Woolwich barracks, but recognise they need to do more to revive Labour's stalled Prevent strategy, which was introduced by the previous government in an attempt to forestall young people becoming involved with extremist groups.

Rupert Sutton, from Student Rights, an organisation aimed at preventing extremism at universities, said he hoped universities would develop internal lists of speakers liable to preach hatred or violence. He added: "There is a problem with Prevent at many universities, partly because it comes from government and partly because it is seen as anti-Muslim. It needs to be refocused much more clearly as being opposed to extremism of both right and left."

I bet this is going to be used against leftist groups before too long. I predicted something like that a while ago although I assumed that they'd just use something like this as an excuse to outright get rid of SUs.

 

[butchersapron]

Not one person or group will ever do anything like this in the UK again.

 

[butchersapron]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/24/woolwich-killing-universities-campaign-radicalisation



I bet this is going to be used against leftist groups before too long. I predicted something like that a while ago although I assumed that they'd just use something like this as an excuse to outright get rid of SUs.

What's the argument for them?

 

[Casually Red]

Not one person or group will ever do anything like this in the UK again.

i hope your right but thats a post that i fear may well be quoted some day

 

[butchersapron]

i hope your right but thats a post that i fear may well be quoted some day

It''s done. That was the one off shock. They had these lads under at least under some prog they tell us about...it's over. 300 people might do this. More likely to get lynched than carry it out again.

 

[J Ed]

It''s done. That was the one off shock. They had these lads under at least under some prog they tell us about...it's over. 300 people might do this. More likely to get lynched than carry it out again.

I'm sure I'm just being a bit thick but I don't know what you mean by this, can you explain?

 

[butchersapron]

I'm sure I'm just being a bit thick but I don't know what you mean by this, can you explain?

The shock value of this only happens once. There are only 300 people in the country( viewing generously) who would do this. If any of them try it they will likely end up dead.

 

[ddraig]

I wonder if the NUS are going to continue denying that extremism in universities is a problem. Hint: yes.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10079894/Woolwich-attack-suspects-former-university-played-host-to-extremists.html

over 10 years ago i personally had to have words with some of them in that society about their leaflets and we had to step into a confrontation between them and the LGBT society at a freshers fair

 

[sptme]

over 10 years ago i personally had to have words with some of them in that society about their leaflets and we had to step into a confrontation between them and the LGBT society at a freshers fair

Was that at Manchester Uni in the late 90s?

 

[elbows]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22664468

For whatever reason the BBC dont seem to have bothered to give the Kenya detention and abuse stuff that was mentioned in the newsnight interview any mention in their website stories yet.

The Guardian talks about it:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/25/woolwich-suspect-kenya-torture

Abu Nusaybah told BBC's Newsnight that Adebolajo was arrested by Kenyan authorities while studying in a village in the country last year. After refusing to answer questions, Adebolajo was told that he was "not in the UK" and was then, he claimed, sexually assaulted. On his return, "he became more reclined [sic], less talkative. He wasn't his bubbly self," said Nusaybah, who added that the experience further radicalised Adebalajo.

Adebolajo had told Nusaybah how he had gone to study in a village in Kenya when he and others were rounded up by the Kenyan army. When he was interrogated, he refused to speak. "They told him, 'You are not in the UK now.' They took his private parts and said, 'We will F you.' He told me he was physically assaulted and sexually threatened. If you looked at his face, he was holding back tears," Nusaybah said.

The Guardian also understands from Whitehall sources that they were aware that Adebolajo has been detained in Kenya before being deported.

The actual interview also suggest the possibility that it wasnt just sexual threats, but that Adebolajo was too ashamed to talk further about what happened in Kenya.

 

[J Ed]

For whatever reason the BBC dont seem to have bothered to give the Kenya detention and abuse stuff that was mentioned in the newsnight interview any mention in their website stories yet.

The Guardian talks about it:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/25/woolwich-suspect-kenya-torture







The actual interview also suggest the possibility that it wasnt just sexual threats, but that Adebolajo was too ashamed to talk further about what happened in Kenya.

It's here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22664468

 

[cesare]

From what I can glean from the article he grew up on council estates. Woolwich is a tough neighbourhood, a lot of deprivation. An old white community and a fairly recently arrived african community which has its own divisions, especially between Muslims and Christians. It can be a tough place to bring up kids and it can be hard to keep them out of trouble.

The African community started to get established in the 80s, many in Thamesmead but now further spread into Woolwich. In the 70s/80s it was similar deprivation - it has always been a tough neighbourhood as you say, poorer than Lewisham - but the established community was predominantly white but also West Indian. Plumstead mainly south Asian and again deprived. So West Indian conflict with African. Of the African, the main splits are north and south Nigerian, Somali, some Ghanaian. Big Sikh community, tend to own many of the local shops in Thamesmead. Most get on with Sikhs. This is very simplistic but there are lots and lots of running conflicts (eg by nationality, heritage, "race", and religious differences overlay and also cut across these), but locally managed otherwise it would be very violent a lot of the time. It's almost like "turf" except that apart from long established communities eg Plumstead High St, everyone is mixed up together so not so much in the way of geographical boundaries although it's possible to do this at street detail. The Eastern European migrants seem to have no concept of turf and upset *everyone* as all compete for few jobs/work. But it is ok if they settle. Some of the population is very transient and no-one knows who they are. Lots of different religions and services, ministers very active. Example of this: minister sets up drug rehab house in normal house in street. Minister divides up a house in a road into small rooms for students. Etc etc

Geographically it looks as though Thamesmead is some distance away, and it is, and there are a couple of retail estate type supermarkets, and small corner type shops and not much else; so people from Thamesmead go to Woolwich to go to specsavers and Poundland etc. Woolwich is hub.

Edit: this is old heartland NF, and still there.

In some ways it resembles east end but south of the river. Also similar pattern of white movement but instead of Essex; Kent.

Example: in last couple of years one of old NF lot was doing lots of community work, he had departed from organised far right stuff years ago, said was only ever because threat to jobs etc. but he went off the straight and narrow again with brief fling with EDL before realising more of same and leaving. But council got wind of it and put paid to letting him lead stuff, not because of his old background (there's much of this) but because of the more recent dabble albeit brief.

Just more detail on your post, not disagreeing with you.

 

[audiotech]

I think this would be great, but that the UAF would call it racist.

Some adherents to the UAF, who frankly haven't got a clue, are saying 'why hasn't this been reported on the TV news' - death of of an elderly man stabbed brutally coming home from prayers at his local mosque.

 

[FNG]

 

[Dillinger4]

this taking of 'likes' on facebook as representative of significant views gets wearing. The likeage variable is so huge. Theres everything from reflex likers, considered likers and everything in between. Its about as significant as someone nodding while another person says something. imo

absolutely.

 

[Athos]

It''s done. That was the one off shock. They had these lads under at least under some prog they tell us about...it's over. 300 people might do this. More likely to get lynched than carry it out again.

Where's the figure of 300 come from?

 

[DotCommunist]

Sparta

 

[andysays]

Not saying it's likely - in part I was trying to second guess what BA meant - but impossible? I wouldn't be so sure - if the right links were 'uncovered' rendition would be a possibility - probably not Gitmo though.

These two have been arrested in a pretty high-profile way, and there is an obvious criminal offence which they can (and will, I suggest) be charged with here. It seems extremely unlikely that they will instead be extraordinarily rendered elsewhere.

Can anyone point to a similar example where this has happened? As far as I remember (though I may be wrong) none of the British citizens/residents who ended up in Gitmo were arrested in the streets of Britain in the full glare of the world's media.

 

[andysays]

The shock value of this only happens once. There are only 300 people in the country( viewing generously) who would do this. If any of them try it they will likely end up dead.

 

[barney_pig]

Did Chaudary (sp?) seriously used to be a member of the SWP?

My wife remembers him clearly, but I only have a vague memory of him.