Woolwich soldier killed (was "Did cops just shoot 2 dead in woolwich?")

[butchersapron]

feck knows, don't know how to really. good to speak to you again anyhow you old grumpy

Just ask 'em, they won't kill you

Always need whites on here

 

[FridgeMagnet]

feck knows, don't know how to really. good to speak to you again anyhow you old grumpy

You specifically asked to use the new name, and were let do so by somebody more generous than me.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

You specifically asked to use the new name, and were let do so by somebody more generous than me.

thanks for that mr pedantic. nice to make your fragrant acquaintance again.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Single parent household, a probation officer mother, Greenwich University degree not completed.

Read it as 'son of a Christian probation officer and a member the Nigerian High Commission' - that'll teach me to skim it

 

[DotCommunist]

Read it as 'son of a Christian probation officer and a member the Nigerian High Commission' - that'll teach me to skim it

was the only man who could ever teach me

 

[SpineyNorman]

From what I can glean from the article he grew up on council estates. Woolwich is a tough neighbourhood, a lot of deprivation. An old white community and a fairly recently arrived african community which has its own divisions, especially between Muslims and Christians. It can be a tough place to bring up kids and it can be hard to keep them out of trouble.

Yeah, I skim read it very quickly and misread the bit at the start about his parents occupations - not the first fuck up I've made tonight either - I think it's probably time I went to bed!

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

was the only man who could ever teach me

bit of dusty never hurt nobody

 

[DotCommunist]

bit of dusty never hurt nobody

she just loved to live that way and to bomb your embassy

 

[J Ed]

I wonder if the NUS are going to continue denying that extremism in universities is a problem. Hint: yes.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10079894/Woolwich-attack-suspects-former-university-played-host-to-extremists.html

 

[SpineyNorman]

That can't possibly happen. They will certainly stand trial here. It would be utterly impossible for them not to.

Not saying it's likely - in part I was trying to second guess what BA meant - but impossible? I wouldn't be so sure - if the right links were 'uncovered' rendition would be a possibility - probably not Gitmo though.

 

[J Ed]

I wouldn't be opposed to that at all. It would be most effective if it was on the back of the kind of community campaigns I mentioned before, so that it was muslims and non-muslims opposing them. That's the kind of message it needs to be IMO - you're scum and decent people, muslims and non-muslims are united in disgust and opposition.

I think this would be great, but that the UAF would call it racist.

 

[Belushi]

Greenwich has nevergiven a fuck. They had a leading BNP figure doing a degree there back when I was a student.

 

[butchersapron]

I wonder if the NUS are going to continue denying that extremism in universities is a problem. Hint: yes.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10079894/Woolwich-attack-suspects-former-university-played-host-to-extremists.html

You need to chase these people off campus. Are they active in your place?

 

[butchersapron]

Greenwich has never a fuck. They had a leading BNP figure doing a degree there back when I was a student.

Did he have a BNP organisation as part of the furniture? No, these cunts have to get gone, and that may mean a fight, but they need gone.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

she just loved to live that way and to bomb your embassy

sharif don't like it

 

[SpineyNorman]

I think this would be great, but that the UAF would call it racist.

They're already on the list, along with Laurie Penny, of people who have called me racist. They've already tried to bar me from a demonstration because I 'looked like EDL' too. So it wouldn't really change anything. Be interesting to see how they'd spin Muslims - and to work this would have to include them, even more so than usual - as racist against Muslims. Not that they wouldn't try of course.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

You need to chase these people off campus. Are they active in your place?

Didn't happen with Patrick Harrington, would it happen now?

 

[butchersapron]

Didn't happen with Patrick Harrington, would it happen now?

It did - we have the leader of the campaign on here. All them people getting together saying this cunt needs gone = win.

 

[J Ed]

You need to chase these people off campus. Are they active in your place?

They are active everywhere, though Sheffield Hallam is a particular hotspot and has been for a decade. Any mention of it to student government or the NUS is either ignored or attacked as Islamophobic. There is careerism at play too, student politicians who want to get on in the NUS don't want the inevitable accusations of Islamophobia.

The only people who are politically active and do any chasing off of campus of anyone are the in the majority the people who won't countenance any criticism of the extremists. The minority are cowed by the majority.

The result is a vacuum which has been filled by a group called Student Rights, which is funded by the neoconservative Henry Jackson Society. The fact that they are the only group to respond further entrenches the position of student politicians to this stuff.

 

[butchersapron]

They are active everywhere, though Sheffield Hallam is a particular hotspot and has been for a decade. Any mention of it to student government or the NUS is either ignored or attacked as Islamophobic. There is careerism at play too, student politicians who want to get on in the NUS don't want the inevitable accusations of Islamophobia.

The only people who are politically active and do any chasing off of campus of anyone are the in the majority the people who won't countenance any criticism of the extremists. The minority are cowed by the majority.

The result is a vacuum which has been filled by a group called Student Rights, which is funded by the neoconservative Henry Jackson Society. The fact that they are the only group to respond further entrenches the position of student politicians to this stuff.

Thanks for that, different world - that is pretty fucking nuts and i don't know how/where to respond. Is this normal on uni campus' (organisations?)

 

[SpineyNorman]

I can't say I've ever come across it - apart from an event at Hallam someone showed me (think it was put on by the Islamic society) with a well dodgy speaker at it. But I don't get that heavily involved with student politics cos it's impossible to have a sensible discussion with half of them without some kind of emotionally charged accusation so I might have missed it.

Is there much of this going on at Sheffield J Ed?

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

It did - we have the leader of the campaign on here. All them people getting together saying this cunt needs gone = win.

Harrington eventually graduated with a philosophy degree http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Harrington

admittedly, in separate classes, but you can't say he was denied either an education or a mouthpiece. at the same time as he was very publicly active in NF etc.

i'm definitely not criticising the people who demonstrated against him, by the way, again, i am highlighting how easily one can use the judicial system and some sheer face to be able to spread some comtemptible and misleading messages regardless.

 

[coley]

well the hungerstrikes proved that the issue of certain death and martyrdom isnt entirely cultural, even the Iranians were taken aback in 81 and sent reps to Bobby Sands funeral . The notion of blood sacrifice goes right back to 1916 and was a major plank of their ideology, and I wouldnt doubt among the various groups thered have been some people prepared to do it . But the difference between the IRA and these jihadist extremists on that particular level is that they were firmly rooted within their communities , it may be hard for you to understand but even those who didnt agree with them , who were the majority, could often respect them to a degree . And there were as a result of that severe constraints placed upon them by what those communities were prepared to tolerate being done in their countrys name . Civilian casualties were an absolute disaster for them . People here, including republicans, were sickened and outraged whenever that happened .

And then theres their political lineage which they viewed as crucial, and the dictum from the 1916 proclamation with its exhortation we pray that no one who serves this cause will dishonour it by cowardice, inhumanity or rapine . Not that there werent those who ignored it . And with that baggage of historical lineage you have the issue of the IRAs roots, norms and rules going back a very long time , arguably to the 19th century . So you would have had old school types succeeding and failing to varying degrees in keeping the lid on some of the madder schemes and directions . And a rule book they had to adhere to which was all very strict on that stuff .

So with the jihadists you dont have any of that, theyre pretty much divorced from much of their communities and really not getting any help or encouragement from that quarter . So theres less , indeed no, constraints on them, no moderation . They make their own rules up as they go along, mind you so do the western powers .They point more to whats happening to muslims abroad than in Britian as their raison detre and when your using that example of hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq..yup i know Britian has pulled out but those people arent coming back to life any time soon..then there appears to be very little rules or constraint upon either side.

But having said all that as unpleasant as the things in Ireland were they were mainly that, unpleasant . Had drones and missiles, white phosphorus and the like been raining down on people the thing could have gotten a hell of a lot worse . I dont even want to think about it and what peoples response might have been to that.

But having said all that as unpleasant as the things in Ireland were they were mainly that, unpleasant . Had drones and missiles, white phosphorus and the like been raining down on people the thing could have gotten a hell of a lot worse . I dont even want to think about it and what peoples response might have been to that

And what's happened here, and other Western countries, compared to the ME and Afghanistan, Pakistan and India and anywhere where you have Muslim communities coming into conflict with other Muslim communities, is, and I mean no disrespect to those who have died in London, pretty small beer.
The various Muslim sects daily visit atrocities on each other, which compared to Western cock ups, misguided drones dropping bombs on wedding parties etc, if you look at it objectively, pales into insignificance.
What we are doing and what we have done, in the ME, looked at in hindsight was patently wrong/ foolish.
But, and lets leave the evil capitalist rhetoric out of it, designed to keep the oil flowing.

 

[butchersapron]

Harrington eventually graduated with a philosophy degree http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Harrington

admittedly, in separate classes, but you can't say he was denied either an education or a mouthpiece. at the same time as he was very publicly active in NF etc.

i'm definitely not criticising the people who demonstrated against him, by the way, again, i am highlighting how easily one can use the judicial system and some sheer face to be able to spread some comtemptible and misleading messages regardless.

A year of turmoil (Under todays conditions) - why not?

 

[J Ed]

I can't say I've ever come across it - apart from an event at Hallam someone showed me (think it was put on by the Islamic society) with a well dodgy speaker at it. But I don't get that heavily involved with student politics cos it's impossible to have a sensible discussion with half of them without some kind of emotionally charged accusation so I might have missed it.

Is there much of this going on at Sheffield J Ed?

I think it's difficult to know the extent to which this stuff goes on because a lot of what goes on isn't open. For example http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jan/03/christmas-bombers-uk-links

When I was involved with Hizb, we controlled the Islamic Society of Sheffield Hallam University for several years, as well as running the society in Bradford University and Birmingham University. We were full-time activists dedicated to fomenting dissent, anti-western feelings and nurturing those who we believed could help to advance our cause.
During my time as one of their student organisers, I came across a number of Islamist activists who went on to become armed jihadists – four former members of Islamic societies that I know of have faced charges of terrorist activity. Omar Khan Sharif, who later died after attempting to detonate a suicide bomb in Tel Aviv, was a regular contact of Hizb and used to attend our meetings .
Our organisation was geared up to keeping control of Islamic societies so that we could utilise their budgets, which ultimately come from the British taxpayer.
We kept the Islamic society under tight control. We used the society's budget to host Hizb speakers, and would target Muslim students we believed could become activists. We had Hizb people delivering sermons every Friday and influential lecturers stayed on as PhD students and then lecturers at universities. These were people whom the university had confidence in and would not doubt.
We knew how to plan the society's election to ensure the correct results. In one year at Hallam, we "fixed" the election by holding a postal vote during exam time and put up three candidates who were all Hizb activists to ensure that we won. If we could not control the Islamic society at a college, we would use "front" societies – the Millennium Society at Queen Mary's was one – which meant we could book rooms, hold events and have access to student union money.
Many individuals who were Hizb activists were encouraged to hide their affiliation, or denied their involvement, but propagated the same extreme ideology and operated openly on campus.
Our role was to nurture those who showed an interest in jihadist movements and win them over to our beliefs. Given what was happening in the world – the war on terror, the Israel-Palestine conflict, the growing Islamaphobia across the western world – this was surprisingly easy to do. We knew that we were being watched by the security services on campus, but we were not scared of them – it did not seem real, for some reason. We felt that we could spot anyone from the security services, and frankly we were open enough about our views not to care. We were more concerned that we were being watched by foreign governments, which might punish our supporters once they had returned to their countries of origin.
The level of radicalisation that is taking place on campus needs to be acknowledged by the university authorities. Organisations such as the Federation of Student Islamic Societies still do not want to recognise that groups such as Hizb, which support suicide bombings, are extreme.

There have been a couple of dodgy Islamic Society speakers per year at Sheffield Uni for a while. Hamza Tzortzis, a former member of Hizb, has spoken for years but has a history of calling for gay people to be murdered and compares them to paedophiles. There have been some moderate speakers too, it isn't anything like Hallam.

 

[coley]

the IRA used suicide as a tactic in 1981, as you must surely know

Suicide, as opposed to suicide attacks, a subtle difference, as you will surely acknowledge?

 

[butchersapron]

This is nuts.

 

[SpineyNorman]

But having said all that as unpleasant as the things in Ireland were they were mainly that, unpleasant . Had drones and missiles, white phosphorus and the like been raining down on people the thing could have gotten a hell of a lot worse . I dont even want to think about it and what peoples response might have been to that

And what's happened here, and other Western countries, compared to the ME and Afghanistan, Pakistan and India and anywhere where you have Muslim communities coming into conflict with other Muslim communities, is, and I mean no disrespect to those who have died in London, pretty small beer.
The various Muslim sects daily visit atrocities on each other, which compared to Western cock ups, misguided drones dropping bombs on wedding parties etc, if you look at it objectively, pales into insignificance.
What we are doing and what we have done, in the ME, looked at in hindsight was patently wrong/ foolish.
But, and lets leave the evil capitalist rhetoric out of it, designed to keep the oil flowing.

It's to be born in mind though that although they're not new these sectarian tensions have been heightened massively by western intervention - both military and less overt.

 

[J Ed]

Thanks for that, different world - that is pretty fucking nuts and i don't know how/where to respond. Is this normal on uni campus' (organisations?)

Depends on who you ask, I suppose. The right-wing monitor group I mentioned before has provided pretty persuasive evidence that it's pervasive http://www.studentrights.org.uk/article/2082/report_unequal_opportunity_gender_segregation_on_uk_university_campuses but the NUS seem to think there's nothing to worry about...

 

[SpineyNorman]

I think it's difficult to know the extent to which this stuff goes on because a lot of what goes on isn't open. For example http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jan/03/christmas-bombers-uk-links



There have been a couple of dodgy Islamic Society speakers per year at Sheffield Uni for a while. Hamza Tzortzis, a former member of Hizb, has spoken for years but has a history of calling for gay people to be murdered and compares them to paedophiles. There have been some moderate speakers too, it isn't anything like Hallam.

So would I be right in saying that the loons operate within university Islamic societies in a way that's sort of similar to how Militant worked in the Labour party? I'm gonna do my best to keep an eye on the sheffield society - and if there's anything that's definitely dodgy (think with the kind of accusations that would inevitably follow you have to be absolutely sure) I'll see what I can do about organising against it. If the BNP or the NF were pulling this kind of shit I'd be on it like a shot so I don't see why these should get a free pass.