Woolwich soldier killed (was "Did cops just shoot 2 dead in woolwich?")

[butchersapron]

Completely academic, I'd say.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Then it changes, obviously. But if they went to a more IRA-like strategy they'd also lose the advantages dylanredefined described. But we can only really look at what they're doing now unless we have information to suggest a change in tactics is in the pipeline can't we?

I think the whole martyr's death thing, with the virgins and whatnot, is an important part of the motivation though, even if its importance is often exaggerated and so this might stop that kind of change taking place, or at least shape what form that change might take.

I think the "heavenly rewards" schtick is frankly overplayed. It may well have been true of the early Mujahideen and the more religiously-motivated (the whole "cleansing Allah's lands of the infidel" vibe), but as a motivation for a pair of converts?
It very obviously serves as justification for participating in a suicide attack, but motivation is usually more personal, and a majority of the time is based on ideas of revenge. It could be argued that conversion from Christianity to Islam is sometimes an act of revenge against family and culture. Perhaps, for these men, their search for death was an extension of that? An attack against a culture that didn't embrace them, that made life harder or more painful than they thought it should be?
One thing I can say with reasonable certainty - growing up in Kidbrooke and its' environs won't have been a cakewalk for anyone non-white, and that could have added to any alienation the killers felt.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So people look at the issue politically and decide they want to talk about our foreign policy. Which they should. It would be silly not to, and it is something in which we are theoretically implicated (if you buy the liberal democracy stuff). But politically there is little most people can do about radical islam. There are a few strategies like no-platforming and so on, but most people in the UK will never encounter it in their daily lives. What political strategies do you suggest?

Well, anyone at a university could check out the Islamic society if there is one and make sure they are complying with university rules on discrimination. And the Christian society and all other societies. They could make sure the university's rules on discrimination aren't fucked up too - it seems many are. People seem to get in a twist over this when the solution is very straightforward:

No discrimination allowed on basis of gender, race, sexual orientation or religious/political belief. But, where there is conflict between these considerations, gender/race/sexual orientation trumps political/religious belief. In other words, you cannot justify discrimination on the basis of belief.

It would be very easy to draw up a policy along these lines, but many places don't.

 

[Brainaddict]

How far are you willing to go with this logic? Should Muslim ticket inspectors be the only ones to fine Muslims who try to dodge fares? How far into Scientology should a Scientologist policeman be before he is able to arrest an operating thetan?

Why is it that this logic isn't applied to middle-class anti-fascists when they confront working-class fascists?

It's about what is useful. When I have had the opportunity to engage in face to face arguments I have tried. I had a friend (he became less so over time) at university who said he thought the 9/11 attacks were justified. Obviously I argued with him because I knew him. I didn't feel it would be helpful to track down others on campus who felt the same way - in general I felt that the arguments of a white almost-atheist would if anything help confirm them in their beliefs. Similiarly a demonstration against a radical group on campus would likely just make them feel right in believing the western world hates islam.

Similarly I tend not to bother arguing about Palestine with most Israelis any more. My attempts to do it in the past have made me feel it is mostly counterproductive. But I did argue with an Israeli about it recently because he was very left wing and I felt we had enough common ground for it to be worthwhile. Just depends what you think is useful, no?

 

[butchersapron]

Well, anyone at a university could check out the Islamic society if there is one and make sure they are complying with university rules on discrimination. And the Christian society and all other societies. They could make sure the university's rules on discrimination aren't fucked up too - it seems many are. People seem to get in a twist over this when the solution is very straightforward:

No discrimination allowed on basis of gender, race, sexual orientation or religious/political belief. But, where there is conflict between these considerations, gender/race/sexual orientation trumps political/religious belief. In other words, you cannot justify discrimination on the basis of belief.

It would be very easy to draw up a policy along these lines, but many places don't.

Or attack them and chase them out. Don't bother with all that legal guff.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Of course it has.

How do you persuade people who are obsessed, to the level that they will kill themselves for their 'cause' though?

The fanatics are not going to listen to reason, and although small in number, can wreak substantial havoc, as has been demonstrated on both sides of the pond.

You don't have to be obsessed or a fanatic to do any of the above. Pathologising "the enemy" may be handy in terms of stirring up the general populace, but it doesn't really help us see why such people have acted as they did, and how to counteract it.

Unless there is help from within the Muslim community, identifying and stopping these people is impossible.

You're assuming that these people are necessarily integrated into their local "Muslim communities". That's a flawed assumption, as our security services have found out repeatedly.

There is a huge problem here, which is that a small number of people, working in isolated cells can be undetectable, until something happens. Manufacturing a car bomb is relatively simple. I would expect that to happen. (It has been tried, but due to 'technical difficulties', thankfully none has exploded.)

As I see it, the problem is insurmountable, it is something we are going to have to learn to live with.

Well, quite. Insurgency, for whatever reason, is hard to fight, just as the ideas that people are willing to die for are hard to erase.

 

[treelover]

JEd, to me it feels kind of superfluous to condemn radical islam - it would be almost ritualistic in a really pointless way. To the people who would listen to me it is already obviously bonkers. Those who are susceptible to it aren't likely to listen to me. I'm kind of happy to leave the battle against extremists to muslims - since they share much more language and have more credibility with the extremists.

I kind of agree with a lot of this post http://scriptonitedaily.wordpress.c...resist-having-our-enemies-constructed-for-us/

Is it guilty of some error for not including a paragraph saying: "Jihadist islam of this extreme type is wrong and so I condemn it and encourage people not to be involved in it"? I don't think it would be a meaningful thing to add to it.

but HNH, UAF attempt to undermine and discredit BNP and the EDL all the time, partly to try to stop them having legitimacy, the same haven't done this with Chaudary/Radical Islam, why couldn't they create one of their united fronts with progressive Muslims against these knobs, in the case of the SWP, they have actually collaborated with these dubious mullahs, etc, Harman while in egypt even agreed with the Cairo Statement which said Nato ships which tried to blockade Palestine would be an acceptable target.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Or attack them and chase them out. Don't bother with all that legal guff.

Yes, that too.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It makes one wonder when the first Brit will be killed by weapons supplied by the British government to some very doggie groups right now. It would seem that some Americans have been killed in Libya by weapons supplied to opposition groups by the USA.

Happened in the 18th century, I believe, when muskets supplied by the redcoats to native American tribesmen to kill Frenchies were used to kill redcoats.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I think the "heavenly rewards" schtick is frankly overplayed. It may well have been true of the early Mujahideen and the more religiously-motivated (the whole "cleansing Allah's lands of the infidel" vibe), but as a motivation for a pair of converts?
It very obviously serves as justification for participating in a suicide attack, but motivation is usually more personal, and a majority of the time is based on ideas of revenge. It could be argued that conversion from Christianity to Islam is sometimes an act of revenge against family and culture. Perhaps, for these men, their search for death was an extension of that? An attack against a culture that didn't embrace them, that made life harder or more painful than they thought it should be?
One thing I can say with reasonable certainty - growing up in Kidbrooke and its' environs won't have been a cakewalk for anyone non-white, and that could have added to any alienation the killers felt.

I don't think it's a primary motivation (in fact in that post I did say that its influence is exaggerated) but I don't think it should be ignored either - it helps shape the form the attacks take and it's become almost like a core tenet of the theological justifications - I don't think it could be abandoned, and the conclusions it leads to abandoned (ie martyrs death etc) for instrumental reasons at the flick of a switch so to speak.

 

[treelover]

Well, anyone at a university could check out the Islamic society if there is one and make sure they are complying with university rules on discrimination. And the Christian society and all other societies. They could make sure the university's rules on discrimination aren't fucked up too - it seems many are. People seem to get in a twist over this when the solution is very straightforward:

No discrimination allowed on basis of gender, race, sexual orientation or religious/political belief. But, where there is conflict between these considerations, gender/race/sexual orientation trumps political/religious belief. In other words, you cannot justify discrimination on the basis of belief.

It would be very easy to draw up a policy along these lines, but many places don't.

The local NUS comes down heavily on Christian societies if they break the rules, hypocrisiy

 

[treelover]

I still hope Spiney organises a working class week, now that would put the cat amongst the pigeons

 

[SpineyNorman]

Well, anyone at a university could check out the Islamic society if there is one and make sure they are complying with university rules on discrimination. And the Christian society and all other societies. They could make sure the university's rules on discrimination aren't fucked up too - it seems many are. People seem to get in a twist over this when the solution is very straightforward:

No discrimination allowed on basis of gender, race, sexual orientation or religious/political belief. But, where there is conflict between these considerations, gender/race/sexual orientation trumps political/religious belief. In other words, you cannot justify discrimination on the basis of belief.

It would be very easy to draw up a policy along these lines, but many places don't.

You're missing out one of the most important factors in this, and the real reason why it's not tackled - politics.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think the "heavenly rewards" schtick is frankly overplayed. It may well have been true of the early Mujahideen and the more religiously-motivated (the whole "cleansing Allah's lands of the infidel" vibe), but as a motivation for a pair of converts?
It very obviously serves as justification for participating in a suicide attack, but motivation is usually more personal, and a majority of the time is based on ideas of revenge. It could be argued that conversion from Christianity to Islam is sometimes an act of revenge against family and culture. Perhaps, for these men, their search for death was an extension of that? An attack against a culture that didn't embrace them, that made life harder or more painful than they thought it should be?
One thing I can say with reasonable certainty - growing up in Kidbrooke and its' environs won't have been a cakewalk for anyone non-white, and that could have added to any alienation the killers felt.

Yep, I agree with this. The virgins in heaven stuff is way overplayed. After all, the originators of the modern suicide attack tactic, the Tamil Tigers, were not primarily a religious group at all, and virtually all suicide attackers have a clearly identifiable secular agenda - invariably nationalist in some form or another.

 

[1%er]

Happened in the 18th century, I believe, when muskets supplied by the redcoats to native American tribesmen to kill Frenchies were used to kill redcoats.

LOL History repeating itself

I was thinking about the weapons they seem to be giving to groups whose ideology they can not be sure of (This is now being talked about in the USA because of the embassy bombing in Libya)

 

[sptme]

crivvens, is there a humour drought on U75 today? '2/ short of members! so to speak.' women , no members.

Oh, the lack of humour ripost, well done! Why don't you just admit you said something stupid?

 

[Casually Red]

In the context of university societies, I think it's quite a straightforward thing. EG: a university has a policy for equal opportunities and non-discrimination on the basis of gender or sexual orientation. Anyone who cannot comply with this policy simply is not allowed to use any university facilities.

This would be very straightforward to implement, but it isn't implemented in many places.

look at the havoc it caused in the BNP when they were forced to accept ethnic minority members . And Al Capone got done for tax evasion . Those bozos could be wiped out on campus with small print if even an ounce of the right pressure was applied .

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You're missing out one of the most important factors in this, and the real reason why it's not tackled - politics.

Well the only place I've read up on a bit is UCL. And at least in the past, the university authorities appear to have been in a total muddle over it. It's the kind of thing attacked as 'multi-culturalism', I guess, but imo it's simply being confused.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Well the only place I've read up on a bit is UCL. And at least in the past, the university authorities appear to have been in a total muddle over it. It's the kind of thing attacked as 'multi-culturalism', I guess, but imo it's simply being confused.

What do you think would happen if the SU's tried to implement the kind of policies you mentioned (ones that I completely agree with by the way)?

That's the reason why it doesn't happen - especially as those running the SU's more often than not have their eye on a future Labour Party candidacy.

 

[cesare]

Yes, that too.

Most unis have those equal opps/discrimination policies it's just that the students don't necessarily think it applies to them.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Aye and if these two in Woolwich and the tube bombers had been from Iraq, Afghanistan I could have been halfway there to understanding their actions, it's trying to get a handle on home grown radicalisation which bothers me.

Because you're thinking in terms of a rationalist secular set of reasons for it. You'd do better to think "if I were a deeply devout member of a religious culture that I felt was under attack, what would I do?", because that's where some of these people are coming from. Add to that the weight of being a person from a minority in a land where most of our politico-legal infrastructure is still institutionally racist, classist and sexist, and radicalisation against the majority culture comes to seem less of a big step, and more of a "natural progression" for a minority, akin to joining a gang where it's you and your fellow members against the world, often with just the same sense of nihilism.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Thought everyone knew this after Oklahoma City! Most country dwellers also know it - farmers use the same for blowing tree stumps out of field so they don't get in the way of the machinery.

Its no big secret.

Nope, and still easy as piss to nick from barns across the UK.

 

[J Ed]

Most unis have those equal opps/discrimination policies it's just that the students don't necessarily think it applies to them.

There are ways around some of this legislation. For example, NUS Vice President of Welfare Pete Mercer justifies enforced gender segregation at events at British Unis on the basis that it's no different to feminist self-organising.

He sort of seems like he has a point until you realise that it definitlely isn't self-organising and it isn't feminist...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Because you're thinking in terms of a rationalist secular set of reasons for it. You'd do better to think "if I were a deeply devout member of a religious culture that I felt was under attack, what would I do?", because that's where some of these people are coming from. Add to that the weight of being a person from a minority in a land where most of our politico-legal infrastructure is still institutionally racist, classist and sexist, and radicalisation against the majority culture comes to seem less of a big step, and more of a "natural progression" for a minority, akin to joining a gang where it's you and your fellow members against the world, often with just the same sense of nihilism.

This is an important discussion that I doubt we will see from the political classes - what is it about Britain that it produces such people?

 

[cesare]

There are ways around some of this legislation. For example, NUS Vice President of Welfare Pete Mercer justifies enforced gender segregation at events at British Unis on the basis that it's no different to feminist self-organising.

He sort of seems like he has a point until you realise that it definitlely isn't self-organising and it isn't feminist...

Aye. It's a two pronged attack really. When something like this is identified, chase the organisers out and make a massive fuss to the uni bosses about unlawful discrimination.

 

[Corax]

anyone who takes wife and kids on demos is 1/ a nob, 2/ short of members! so to speak.

Say what mal?

 

[cesare]

Say what mal?

Why did you underline wife rather than takes?

 

[Casually Red]

This is an important discussion that I doubt we will see from the political classes - what is it about Britain that it produces such people?

thats what really needs looked at imho . To me it looked like right away a convenient excuse to say radical islam is responsible for producing these people and for the powers that be to absolve themselves of any hand in creating the conditions and motivating factors. I think its only one piece of the jigsaw, no doubt an important one, but there has to be a lot more to it than that .

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What do you think would happen if the SU's tried to implement the kind of policies you mentioned (ones that I completely agree with by the way)?

I might be being thick here, but what would happen? Counter-protests from excluded discriminatory groups? That wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing - it would force the debate out into the open.

 

[1%er]

Nope, and still easy as piss to nick from barns across the UK.

Is that really true

I was thinking how lucky the people of the UK were that their government banned guns and made access to bomb making materials (such as fertilizer) very difficult.