Woolwich soldier killed (was "Did cops just shoot 2 dead in woolwich?")

[Corax]

I'm not dictating anything. But if you want to follow people round picking them up on casual sexism, you might as well do a thorough job of it.

Ps - "follow people round"? I've done nothing of the sort. Get a fucking grip.

 

[malatesta32]

anyone who takes wife and kids on demos is 1/ a nob, 2/ short of members! so to speak.

i assume we all have to post using LOL now then for those at the back. the joke is this 'anyone who takes wife and kids on demos is short of members! so to speak.' ie, they have lady willies not man willies. and i guess i shall have to cancel my act at U75 XMAS 2013!

 

[malatesta32]

The sexism was in the inherent assumption that the wife would be taken rather than deciding for herself.

havent noticed anyone criticising the overuse of cunt as an insult on here sisters!!!! LOL!!!

 

[Corax]

Why don't kids have willies?

I mean the boys, obvs.

 

[ice-is-forming]

but it's more easily seen as an insensitive slip of the tongue than the point I picked up on

Its really not.

 

[IC3D]

The interview with Abu Nusaybah on Newsnight a friend of Michael Adebolajo one of the attackers is pretty stark in outlying the process of possible radicalisation, if taken as true and reading between the lines a bit Prior to a trip to Kenya he was a bubbly person but while there he was rounded up with others (we don't know why he was there but I guess it was possible shenanigans) by the police, tortured, sexually abused and possibly raped in custody. On returning his personality changed and he complained of being harassed from the moment he returned by MI5 and asked to become an informer. Now if that was me I would crack up for one thing and assume the Kenyans were working for MI5 also.

This guy was also nicked as he walked out of the studio after the interview. My conclusion is that Abu Nusaybah is quite believable and this is a massive cock up by the security services.

 

[malatesta32]

not LOL!
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lee-...ved-to-die/392169994232505?hc_location=stream

 

[cesare]

Christ I detest this latest foray into hackneyed 80s identity politics.

 

[ViolentPanda]

but HNH, UAF attempt to undermine and discredit BNP and the EDL all the time, partly to try to stop them having legitimacy, the same haven't done this with Chaudary/Radical Islam, why couldn't they create one of their united fronts with progressive Muslims against these knobs, in the case of the SWP, they have actually collaborated with these dubious mullahs, etc, Harman while in egypt even agreed with the Cairo Statement which said Nato ships which tried to blockade Palestine would be an acceptable target.

A couple of points:

1) "Radical Islam" is somewhat more diffuse than the "ideologies" behind the BNP and the EDL, so is more difficult to pillory and/or act against on an ongoing basis.
2) The fact that radical Islamism cloaks itself in the robes of Islam-in-general means that public comment on it is more fraught with legal and social complications than comment on BritNat ideas and/or activities.
3) Radical Islamism is also able to cloak itself behind communities which, while they do not support Islamism, still respect their religio-cultural obligations to fellow Muslims.
4) Much of radical Islamism is, if not covert, still "members only" in a way that far-right activism isn't.

You're expecting organisations set up to fight donkeys to take on wild horses too.

 

[cesare]

not LOL!
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lee-...ved-to-die/392169994232505?hc_location=stream

Heavy on-line policing presence, eh.

 

[ViolentPanda]

This is an important discussion that I doubt we will see from the political classes - what is it about Britain that it produces such people?

It's a discussion the political classes can't and won't have (outwith a few "mavericks"), because it points up their own failure to think through the original policy intent behind the British version of multiculturalism, and how that set of policies have partially nourished both the religiosity and the sense of alienation that has fueled Islamist radicalism in Britain.

 

[J Ed]

A couple of points:

1) "Radical Islam" is somewhat more diffuse than the "ideologies" behind the BNP and the EDL, so is more difficult to pillory and/or act against on an ongoing basis.
2) The fact that radical Islamism cloaks itself in the robes of Islam-in-general means that public comment on it is more fraught with legal and social complications than comment on BritNat ideas and/or activities.
3) Radical Islamism is also able to cloak itself behind communities which, while they do not support Islamism, still respect their religio-cultural obligations to fellow Muslims.
4) Much of radical Islamism is, if not covert, still "members only" in a way that far-right activism isn't.

Good points, from what I can tell there is also a fairly wide spectrum of opinion even in groups like Hizb. All of this does make it difficult to combat these groups, but not impossible, right now we are in a situation where even if we know what is happening and it is happening openly nothing is done.

 

[Casually Red]

The interview with Abu Nusaybah on Newsnight a friend of Michael Adebolajo one of the attackers is pretty stark in outlying the process of possible radicalisation, if taken as true and reading between the lines a bit Prior to a trip to Kenya he was a bubbly person but while there he was rounded up with others (we don't know why he was there but I guess it was possible shenanigans) by the police, tortured, sexually abused and possibly raped in custody. On returning his personality changed and he complained of being harassed from the moment he returned by MI5 and asked to become an informer. Now if that was me I would crack up for one thing and assume the Kenyans were working for MI5 also.

This guy was also nicked as he walked out of the studio after the interview. My conclusion is that Abu Nusaybah is quite believable and this is a massive cock up by the security services.

theres no shortage of news articles describing Kenya as Britains key ally in africa in its war on terror .

just a flavour and we can read between plenty of lines there as to the extent and nature of the intelligence relationship .
http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/?articleID=1143998024,-UK-to-battle-on-in-terror-war

Britain maintains a serious military presence there and theres been numerous reports of troops regularly getting away with everything from gang rapes, assaults and murders . Which indicates the Kenyans often play an aquiescent role to the former colonial masters . So if a British citizen underwent some serious co ercion there its quite likely it could have been at the behest or connivance of the British intelligence services, using agencies in a rougher part of the world to conduct the nastier co ercion methods they dont like to be seen doing . But nontheless having a great deal of responsibility for what happened . If MI5 were right on his case the moment he got back that would indicate they were probably involved in some way in Kenya too .
If thats the case im not remotely surprised theyve gripped this guy who was spilling the beans . If the British security services played a role in brutalising a guy to a point that made him so vengeful im quite sure they wont want that to be part of the narrative .

 

[ViolentPanda]

Is that really true

I was thinking how lucky the people of the UK were that their government banned guns and made access to bomb making materials (such as fertilizer) very difficult.

Ammonium nitrate is still the most widely-used chemical fertiliser for arable farming in use in the UK. It's not treated as an explosive, so it's merely required to be "secured" (i.e. kept in a building with a lockable door). Until the '90s, you could find sacks of it stacked in fields ahead of use on just about all non organically-farmed arable. My uncle (a house builder) keeps a couple of 26kilo sacks of it in his lock-up for stump clearance and slab-breaking.

E2A:
Farmers need a licence to buy ammonium nitrate, but what happens to it after it is bought and stored makes the licencing procedure a bit farcical. Typical neoliberal "self-regulation" wishful thinking.

 

[Corax]

Its really not.

I disagree. A friend of mine, in an attempt to convert me to the sport, took me to a cricket match a couple of weeks ago. He wasn't laying any claim of ownership upon me. Given the history of women as property the phrase becomes loaded when in the context that mal used it, but it's reasonable to see it as a common phrasing unwittingly used in an inappropriate context, IMO.

I can't see any similar mitigation for lumping women and children in to the same category of people to be kept away from demos - protected from the world by the big strong men.

Neither is good, but personally I see less excuse for the latter.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Fuck me, that would make one hell of a bang.

Add about 6 or 7 gallons of diesel to your half ton of ammonium nitrate, and it'd add an even bigger bastard of a "hell of a bang".

 

[1%er]

Ammonium nitrate is still the most widely-used chemical fertiliser for arable farming in use in the UK. It's not treated as an explosive, so it's merely required to be "secured" (i.e. kept in a building with a lockable door). Until the '90s, you could find sacks of it stacked in fields ahead of use on just about all non organically-farmed arable. My uncle (a house builder) keeps a couple of 26kilo sacks of it in his lock-up for stump clearance and slab-breaking.

That's interesting. I read elsewhere that all orders for Ammonium nitrate (and a few other chemicals that i won't list here) placed with wholesalers are, as a matter of course, passed on to a 3rd party agency's for clearance. (I assumed 3rd party agency's meant the police in the first instance).

Farming in the UK is quite a big industry so I guess things don't always work as they are meant too.

Add about 6 or 7 gallons of diesel to your half ton of ammonium nitrate, and it'd add an even bigger bastard of a "hell of a bang".

Not to mention ball-bearings, nails and other things

 

[ViolentPanda]

Good but terrifying article. Seems like the establishment really has been wilfully blind to extremism in a lot of institutions.

Would have been better if Lee hadn't, as is his usual practice (even when posting on Urban), tried to make the story about himself.

 

[ViolentPanda]

That's interesting. I read elsewhere that all orders for Ammonium nitrate (and a few other chemicals that i won't list here) placed with wholesalers are, as a matter of course, passed on to a 3rd party agency's for clearance. (I assumed 3rd party agency's meant the police in the first instance).

Farming in the UK is quite a big industry so I guess things don't always work as they are meant too.

Yeah, it does mean police, but what it effectively means is that some overworked constable or sergeant matches orders to names on their patch along the lines of "ah, old farmer Jones has his annual order for 144 sacks in" and passing the order. It doesn't govern what happens to the stuff once it's in Jones's barn, so Jones is possibly going to find himself a couple of sacks short come time to fertilise his fields.

 

[1%er]

Yeah, it does mean police, but what it effectively means is that some overworked constable or sergeant matches orders to names on their patch along the lines of "ah, old farmer Jones has his annual order for 144 sacks in" and passing the order. It doesn't govern what happens to the stuff once it's in Jones's barn, so Jones is possibly going to find himself a couple of sacks short come time to fertilise his fields.

I assume that this kind of stuff is given some kind of chemical signature so it can be traced back to source?

Stable Horse etc. but helpful never the less

 

[Casually Red]

Yeah, it does mean police, but what it effectively means is that some overworked constable or sergeant matches orders to names on their patch along the lines of "ah, old farmer Jones has his annual order for 144 sacks in" and passing the order. It doesn't govern what happens to the stuff once it's in Jones's barn, so Jones is possibly going to find himself a couple of sacks short come time to fertilise his fields.

the british public can thank themselves very lucky that its immigrant muslim population are not traditionally engaged in the agricultural sector as a means of employment . Very lucky indeed .

 

[Casually Red]

I assume that this kind of stuff is given some kind of chemical signature so it can be traced back to source?

Stable Horse etc. but helpful never the less

unlikely, in agro commerce a few big companies dominate the market . Most farmers would use the same brands .

 

[barney_pig]

i assume we all have to post using LOL now then for those at the back. the joke is this 'anyone who takes wife and kids on demos is short of members! so to speak.' ie, they have lady willies not man willies. and i guess i shall have to cancel my act at U75 XMAS 2013!

Desperate

 

[1%er]

unlikely, in agro commerce a few big companies dominate the market . Most farmers would use the same brands .

I know this is the case in the USA, many chemicals (in batches) are given a chemical signature during manufacture and imports are also treated this way, or refused an import license. The cost incurred is paid by the US government.

 

[phildwyer]

Meant to reply to this first bit last night - pretty sure you can't call my posting style academic!

Gnomıc as fuck though.

 

[phildwyer]

The threat to who and what? You must have some basis for deciding the edl are a bigger threat.

And you most defınıtely have a reason for decıdıng that relıgıous fundamentalısts are the bıggest threat.

 

[phildwyer]

Not sure that you're being asked to condemn radical islam (and its telling that politics has bow becoem a matter of simply openly condemning an idea or series of ideas) but to understand what it's doing and where it comes from and by extension how to stop if being produced.

A good start would be to stop the Brıtısh government slaughterıng thousands of Muslıms.

Untıl the Brıtısh people put a stop to that, they wıll contınue to suffer revenge attacks from radıcalızed Muslıms.

 

[phildwyer]

what is it about Britain that it produces such people?

The fact that the Brıtısh government keeps on ınvadıng Muslım countrıes.

 

[phildwyer]

Not one person or group will ever do anything like this in the UK again.

You'll be seeıng thıs post agaın.

 

[laptop]

Did I miss a mention of one of the suspects, Michael Adebowale, being stabbed by a crack user called Lee James in a flat in Erith when he was 16?

Guardian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/24/woolwich-adebowale-witnessed-murder-knife

News Shopper at the time: http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/3994670.ERITH__Faridon_Alizada_murderer_gets_life/

Afterwards James confessed to friends he had killed Mr Alizadah, saying he believed the boys were members of Al-Qaeda, plotting to blow up Bluewater shopping centre.