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Will you vote for independence?

Scottish independence?

  • Yes please

    Votes: 99 56.6%

  • No thanks

    Votes: 57 32.6%

  • Dont know yet

    Votes: 17 9.7%
  • Total voters
    175
the working document (is safe) proper one costs £40, is endorsed by von Romply, Barrosso et al. Draft stages next year probably after May to save Cameron's blushes. Treaty, you are looking 2018-19, as things take time, Lords blocked Referendum bill telling Cameron his timetable was unworkable. Labour already said the treaty referendum will be in out. Libs also want an in/out (but blocked one early this parliament). Tories in out ahead of a second on the treaty is probably the way to go if you want to see the treaty adopted -take the sting out of Eu issue first. But relationship with EU will change/ and be publicly tested next parliament whoever wins.

As told you twice on this page Spain won't block application but will make dam sure its a reapplication. Commission who don't really answer to anybody, have said its reapplication in writing to Scots Parliament.Yes (who need people to vote) have said different.


If you think rUK will sit around with an open border to Scoland when Scotland has no border control with the rest of EU then you haven't been following politics down South. The one thing politics down there hasn't been this month is hug an immigrant.
 
the same closely guarded border that there is, say, between Northern Ireland and the Republic? I'm following politics "down south" quite closely, and I can make a dstinction between posturing bullshit (you cant use the pound / borders will go up/ you'll have to take your passport to visit your granny in Jedburgh/ we will bomb Scottish airports to stop terrorists using them) and the post-yes negotiating position which of necessity will be much more emollient.

as for the rest of your post (and to be fair, much of mine) all this is supposition and wishing upon a star. No one really knows what will happen with the EU / EC, not even the EC themselves. Who knows how much of the current £40 "draft document" will actually become law, or indeed if there is still a recognisable EU left to lay down that law five years from now.

I'm perfectly willing to acknowledge uncertainty and unknowns in this process. No one said it will be easy. I have much less patience with catastrophism and back-of-a-fag-packet-second guessing.
 
you may not not know that Yes' position of his still being in EU will happen, but there is fuck all reason to suppose that the much stated reapplication isn't the way it will be. To sate otherwise that the wishing on a star.


All previous treaties have gone through the same mechanism, largely unchanged and while there is a glimmer of hope for Cameron, it was his 'veto' a couple of years ago that's leading to article 50. Europe got its self into a real and painful mess over the EUro, and his posturing impressed few tasked with trying to turn things around.


Fag packet second guessing I'll leave to anyone trying to use the White Paper as a road map to an independent nation state. I see now the accountants are up in arms about the vague tax proposals
 
A senior spokesman for the EC said Scotland would have to reapply to Europe:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...land-forced-to-reapply-for-EU-membership.html

echoed in this article some months later:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ld-have-to-apply-from-scratch-to-join-EU.html

How long would the process take - hopefully not as long as Croatia (10 years) but probably not as short as hoped (16 months), from the above article.
His intervention was a further blow for Alex Salmond because the Baltic state is scheduled to take over the EU presidency shortly after the Scottish independence referendum, in autumn 2014.

Similar opinions have been expressed by the foreign ministers for the Czech Republic and Ireland and José Manuel Barroso, the European Commission’s President. Mr Barroso said the remainder of the UK would remain a member.
Click to expand...

There's plenty more articles on Google.

I stand by my earlier comments stating that this could be damaging to the Scottish academic sector, as non-EU members are not eligible for EU research funding, a mainstay of Scottish Universities. It is also unclear what would happen to the funding stream currently obtained from the UK Research Councils. This is also substantial.

It's not catastrophising to say this might happen. It is a plausible scenario.
 
Yeah, two articles from the notoriously pro-indy Daily Telegraph :facepalm: (there are also plenty of articles "on google" suggesting the opposite point of view- Scotland will continue uninterrupted as an EU member, or return after a very short interruption- will actually come to pass)

Your scenario is plausible in the same way that the Tories establishing permanent majority rule in Scotland post-independence, and selling the Forth Road Bridge and the William Wallace statue to the Chinese, is plausible.
 
equationgirl said:
A senior spokesman for the EC said Scotland would have to reapply to Europe:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...land-forced-to-reapply-for-EU-membership.html

echoed in this article some months later:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ld-have-to-apply-from-scratch-to-join-EU.html

How long would the process take - hopefully not as long as Croatia (10 years) but probably not as short as hoped (16 months), from the above article.


There's plenty more articles on Google.

I stand by my earlier comments stating that this could be damaging to the Scottish academic sector, as non-EU members are not eligible for EU research funding, a mainstay of Scottish Universities. It is also unclear what would happen to the funding stream currently obtained from the UK Research Councils. This is also substantial.

It's not catastrophising to say this might happen. It is a plausible scenario.
Click to expand...
.

You don't have to take a journalists word on it, its on the Scottish Parliament website. Salmond dismissed Barrosso saying it as posturing in order to get the NATO job, I don't know what career plans Viviane Reding has.
 
Last edited:
steeplejack said:
Yeah, two articles from the notoriously pro-indy Daily Telegraph :facepalm: (there are also plenty of articles "on google" suggesting the opposite point of view- Scotland will continue uninterrupted as an EU member, or return after a very short interruption- will actually come to pass)

Your scenario is plausible in the same way that the Tories establishing permanent majority rule in Scotland post-independence, and selling the Forth Road Bridge and the William Wallace statue to the Chinese, is plausible.
Click to expand...
By the way, I'm not particularly pro-Yes vote before you go down that avenue.

Next you'll be suggesting that setting up independent infrastructure for a whole range of government functions won't cost a bean.

Got anything to say about UK research council funding being cut or are you ignoring that small point?
 
Yeah, I had gathered you're not particularly pro-Yes. I'm not sure what gave you the impression otherwise.

I'll say something about UK research funding "being cut" when it happens, alongside your predicted "brain drain"- i.e., not anytime soon.
 
steeplejack said:
Yeah, I had gathered you're not particularly pro-Yes. I'm not sure what gave you the impression otherwise.

I'll say something about UK research funding "being cut" when it happens, alongside your predicted "brain drain"- i.e., not anytime soon.
Click to expand...
Did you see this article?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27530445
Scottish institutions won £257m from the UK Research Council last year.

The Scottish government has said that ground-breaking medical research would continue in an independent Scotland.

It wants to create a common funding area with the rest of the UK in the event of a "Yes" vote.

But the letter from the academics said this would be "fraught with difficulty" and success would be "unlikely".

The open letter from the academics says: "If Scotland were to withdraw from the UK and create its own Scottish Research Council our research community would be denied its present ability to win proportionately more grant funding than the country contributes to a common research pool.

"However, rather than 'going it alone' the Scottish government aspires to join with the remaining UK in creating a common research funding area.

"Even if this could be negotiated it is highly unlikely that the remaining UK would tolerate a situation in which an independent 'competitor' country won more money than it contributed to drive its research, develop capital projects and infrastructure, and train its research workforce.

"We regard creation of a post-independence common research area as an undertaking fraught with difficulty and one that is unlikely to come to fruition."

The statement is signed by a group of 14 professors.
Click to expand...

The 14 professors are some of the leading researchers in Scottish medical research.
 
A wee light shone on why there were complaints about the Vote No Borders adverts in cinemas perhaps?

nobgosh.jpg


The above is an email from Great Ormond Street Hospital for Children, probably the UK’s (if not the world’s) most famous such institution. It was cited in the VNB ads with the suggestion that it would become “out of bounds” to Scottish children should Scotland vote for independence. The reality seems to speak for itself.

We don’t think we’re yet anywhere near the lowest depths the various factions of the No campaign will sink to between now and September, but it seems determined to drag bystanders down into the sewers with it in its at-all-costs defence of the Union.

http://wingsoverscotland.com/unrestricted-warfare/
 
Went to see X-Men yesterday.

3 better together adverts, no Yes ones. Not many people stopped talking during the first.

The second one was generally greeted with the facial expression reserved for Beavis and Butthead when a song they don't like comes on.

images


The third one merely had a general murmur of 'wankers' and I'm pretty sure a few bits of popcorn flew at the screen because it was a 2D showing.
 
The "campaign" so far has been absolutely terrible from both sides.

Lies, spin, rumourmongering, whataboutery, "he-said-she-said" pish.

Now that the "official" 16 week period has started it's to be hoped the campaign will improve but it looks like it is just going to get nastier the closer the day approaches.

I still think this will be a 1979 rather than a 1997 experience. Whatever the feelgood factor within some areas the numbers just are not moving quickly enough.
 
steeplejack said:
In other news, this is a rather depressing poll in today's Herald.

One in the eye for those who insist, with not a great deal of evidence, that Scotland is more "left wing" and insitinctively "tolerant" of outsiders, than the rUK.

"Wir aw Jock Tamson's bairns". Well, as long as you're from round here, that is.

:facepalm:
Click to expand...

There's a slight bias toward Labour in Scotland and Wales (possibly due to a larger public sector) but the more left wing than England narrative is a bit of a myth. Whats more interesting is the trend away from the Tories in Scotland, who were once the biggest party is being followed not only in Northern England but urban areas throughout the UK. Even in a prosperous city like Cambridge which once returned a one nation Tory with a comfortable majority, they are now a total irrelevance.
 
Nice bedfellows in the No campaign

c+p'd because the Herald is paywalled

A PRO-UNION blogger who was barred from Ukip for questioning the Holocaust has become the first individual to register as an official campaigner in the independence referendum.


Alistair McConnachie, who disputes that Nazis used gas chambers to murder Jews, is now legally entitled to spend up to £150,000 in support of a No vote.

He registered with the Electoral Commission as a so-called "permitted participant" last week, a sign he intends to spend at least £10,000 of his own money or donations.

Glasgow-based McConnachie, 48, was Ukip's Scottish organiser between 1999 and 2001, and stood as a Ukip candidate five times.

However, in late 2001, the party refused to renew his membership because of comments he made about the killing of Jews at

In an email to party members, he said: "I don't accept that gas chambers were used to execute Jews for the simple fact there is no direct physical evidence to show that such gas chambers ever existed ... There are no photographs or films of execution gas chambers ... Alleged eyewitness accounts are revealed as false or highly exaggerated."

McConnachie also claimed the Pope was duped over the Holocaust and attacked the Board of Deputies of British Jews, prompting some Ukip members to resign from the party's executive.

The controversy began in 2000 when McConnachie wrote to newspapers questioning how many Jews had died at Auschwitz and citing American "expert" Fred Leuchter, who claimed there were no gas chambers at the concentration camp.

McConnachie also accused the Board of Deputies of "seeking to establish a monopoly in the marketplace of ideas" because it complained to the BBC for running two interviews with the Holocaust denier David Irving.

Ukip initially expelled McConnachie for five years for bringing the party into disrepute, but this was reduced on appeal to a one-year suspension from the executive.

At the time, McConnachie said he had been defending his "private right to free speech within the law" but Ukip refused to renew his membership. After Ukip, McConnachie formed his own party, Independent Green Voice, and stood as its candidate three times.

In 2007, he wrote that he was not a Holocaust denier but was "quite prepared to accept that six million Jews perished in the Holocaust", but retained his doubts about gas chambers.

"Regarding the Holocaust, the most that could be said is that I've questioned, and doubt from a historically interested point of view, some aspects, specifically with regard to the existence of execution gas chambers."

Since March 2012, McConnachie has run a pro-Union website called aforceforgood.org.uk, which carries essays and graphics, many of the Union flag and the phrase "Gonna vote naw". It argues against more powers for Holyrood because "the presence of a significant separatist movement", in the form of the SNP, means "devolving power will always be potentially dangerous to a union".

SNP MSP Stewart Maxwell called on the pro-Union Better Together campaign to distance itself from McConnachie, saying: "Mr McConnachie's repulsive views denying the Holocaust are stomach-churning - even Ukip disciplined him for that.

"He is entitled to vote and work for a No, but he has gone further than that by formally associating himself with the No campaign. Therefore, in the interests of decency and a civilised debate, we would urge David Cameron to dissociate himself from Mr McConnachie and suggest that [Better Together chair] Alistair Darling writes to him requesting that he deregister as a permitted participant."

A Better Together spokesman said: "The fact that we had to Google this guy tells you all you need to know about his links to our campaign."

McConnachie hung up on the Sunday Herald when contacted for comment.
Click to expand...
 
Some interesting maps based on the latest ICM poll

nomap.jpg
yesmap.jpg
dunnomap.jpg

Only two areas over 50% No? Aaaallll to play for.
 
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