Will you vote for independence?

[JTG]

I can see the distinction you are trying to make. I just do not think it applies here. This isn't the Britain of 250 years ago with its rotten boroughs or people being evicted for not voting the 'right way'.

You don't think that there's a power imbalance between bosses and workers?

 

[Quartz]

You don't think that there's a power imbalance between bosses and workers?

Of course there is in general, but in this case it doesn't amount to bullying.

 

[DotCommunist]

he's using his position of power to promote his erroneous views on what independence would mean, and heavily implying that the people in reciept of his wisdom might be looking for another job should it come to pass. Not in a direct manner no, in a pontious manner, I wash my hands of it. Of course you must vote how you feel but there may not be a business here for you to work at. I don't make the rules.

I just send the company wide emails

 

[danny la rouge]

I can see the distinction you are trying to make. I just do not think it applies here. This isn't the Britain of 250 years ago with its rotten boroughs or people being evicted for not voting the 'right way'.

I don’t know why you’re using the Rotten Borough analogy; nobody is accusing Bill Munro of using his employee’s votes. We’re accusing him of misusing his position of power to spread his political views, in a way that intimidates his staff and threatens their jobs.

This is not a freedom of speech issue; he did not happen upon a group of employees in the pub and tell them how he intended to vote. He did not write to the newspaper giving his views. He did not appear on the radio in an interview about business leaders’ views on the referendum. He – in his role as company director – used the company email system, complete with logo-encrusted email, to imply to his employees that they’d be out of a job if Yes won.

If a company boss loomed in the doorway of the stationery closet while a secretary was in there, and said leeringly “You’re a very attractive woman”, we would say he was an intimidating sex pest, abusing his power and frightening a member of staff. We would not say it was a freedom of speech issue.

It’s new for me to be accused of being against freedom of speech; normally I’m being accused of giving succour to racists because of my support of freedom of speech. (I opposed the ban on Dieudonne entering the UK, for example). But I have no doubt that this is an issue of abuse of power, not of freedom of expression.

I ask again, do you think any employees felt it was a jaunty email debate? That they could chime in with their take? That they could counter his assertions (“Hold on, aren’t we travel agents? Don’t we do business in foreign countries every day?”)?

If you can’t see the abuse of power and the intimidation, then I have to say you’re being remarkably imperceptive. Munro’s email was not a contribution to the debate; he didn’t intend for there to be a debate at all. He intended to frighten his staff, and he used company logos and his job title to do it.

 

[Quartz]

I don’t know why you’re using the Rotten Borough analogy; nobody is accusing Bill Munro of using his employee’s votes. We’re accusing him of misusing his position of power to spread his political views, in a way that intimidates his staff and threatens their jobs.

I see you're backtracking on the accusation of bullying. And he isn't threatening their jobs: he's saying that in his view independence threatens their jobs. It's a nice distinction but an important one.

 

[butchersapron]

No he's not. There is no backtracking on that in that post.

 

[danny la rouge]

I see you're backtracking on the accusation of bullying.

Where do you see that? I may have said "intimidating" rather than "bullying" in that post, but I see them as synonyms. If you like I'll repeat it: he was bullying.

As for the job loss threat, I always said it was implied. It is also based on a falsehood: there's nothing stopping him doing business in England.

 

[danny la rouge]

Just to add: Munro said there are EU rules that prevent him doing business in his English and Irish branches if Scotland was outside the EU. There are no such rules, but leaving that aside, wouldn't you think that Munro would be calling for people to vote against the Tories, too? After all, they have promised an in/out EU referendum, which would mean that his English branches might be outside the EU and his Irish branches in it. He'll be sending that email, won't he? The Tory-supporting Bill Munro.

 

[gosub]

Where do you see that? I may have said "intimidating" rather than "bullying" in that post, but I see them as synonyms. If you like I'll repeat it: he was bullying.

As for the job loss threat, I always said it was implied. It is also based on a falsehood: there's nothing stopping him doing business in England.

Falsehood is too strong a word, the route the referendum is taking, a yes vote generates a great many unknowns- which are an anathema to doing business.
Also quite hard to be bullied by a non executive Director, his daughter runs the company and pull up articles about him you see him scratching for a roll.

A lot of people will be looking for insight from their company, for fear of boycotts that information will be less forthcoming now, not just more circumspect, less forthcoming.

 

[butchersapron]

This is an excellent thread - hidden away.

 

[butchersapron]

Falsehood is too strong a word, the route the referendum is taking, a yes vote generates a great many unknowns- which are an anathema to doing business.
Also quite hard to be bullied by a non executive Director, his daughter runs the company and pull up articles about him you see him scratching for a roll.

A lot of people will be looking for insight from their company, for fear of boycotts that information will be less forthcoming now, not just more circumspect, less forthcoming.

Lies is a more accurate term. Falsehood was danny being nice i think.

 

[danny la rouge]

Too nice for my own good. Bully and liar is what I should have said. Not intimidating falsehood purveyor.

 

[gosub]

Just to add: Munro said there are EU rules that prevent him doing business in his English and Irish branches if Scotland was outside the EU. There are no such rules, but leaving that aside, wouldn't you think that Munro would be calling for people to vote against the Tories, too? After all, they have promised an in/out EU referendum, which would mean that his English branches might be outside the EU and his Irish branches in it. He'll be sending that email, won't he? The Tory-supporting Bill Munro.

I'm inclined to agree re EU (neither of us are on the board for ABTA unlike his company) but it doesn't make sense. But currency wise and deposit wise how do you put stuff on escrow if you don't know the currency, the exchange and interest rate?

I'm sure his daughter would kill him ahead of publishing for the EU referendum (due in about 2019 regardless of Lab/Con)

 

[frogwoman]

it's really not his place to tell his workers how to vote, let alone say they'll be out of a job if scotland becomes independent.

 

[frogwoman]

Of course there is in general, but in this case it doesn't amount to bullying.

yes it does.

how would you feel if your boss wrote you a letter telling you not to vote for nigel farage or if you voted ukip you'd be out of a job?

 

[butchersapron]

He'd love it - the pipsqueak.

 

[Quartz]

it's really not his place to tell his workers how to vote, let alone say they'll be out of a job if scotland becomes independent.

But he's not telling them how to vote. And it is his job as a director to evaluate the risks as he sees them of an independent Scotland wrt his company.

 

[gosub]

But he's not telling them how to vote. And it is his job as a director to evaluate the risks as he sees them of an independent Scotland wrt his company.

he's not an executive director

 

[frogwoman]

But he's not telling them how to vote. And it is his job as a director to evaluate the risks as he sees them of an independent Scotland wrt his company.

if he says to his staff they'll lose their jobs if scotland becomes independent i'm sorry that is telling them how to vote.

 

[frogwoman]

I don’t know why you’re using the Rotten Borough analogy; nobody is accusing Bill Munro of using his employee’s votes. We’re accusing him of misusing his position of power to spread his political views, in a way that intimidates his staff and threatens their jobs.

This is not a freedom of speech issue; he did not happen upon a group of employees in the pub and tell them how he intended to vote. He did not write to the newspaper giving his views. He did not appear on the radio in an interview about business leaders’ views on the referendum. He – in his role as company director – used the company email system, complete with logo-encrusted email, to imply to his employees that they’d be out of a job if Yes won.

If a company boss loomed in the doorway of the stationery closet while a secretary was in there, and said leeringly “You’re a very attractive woman”, we would say he was an intimidating sex pest, abusing his power and frightening a member of staff. We would not say it was a freedom of speech issue.

It’s new for me to be accused of being against freedom of speech; normally I’m being accused of giving succour to racists because of my support of freedom of speech. (I opposed the ban on Dieudonne entering the UK, for example). But I have no doubt that this is an issue of abuse of power, not of freedom of expression.

I ask again, do you think any employees felt it was a jaunty email debate? That they could chime in with their take? That they could counter his assertions (“Hold on, aren’t we travel agents? Don’t we do business in foreign countries every day?”)?

If you can’t see the abuse of power and the intimidation, then I have to say you’re being remarkably imperceptive. Munro’s email was not a contribution to the debate; he didn’t intend for there to be a debate at all. He intended to frighten his staff, and he used company logos and his job title to do it.

excellent post danny

i can't believe that he thought this was acceptable.

 

[weepiper]

Also quite hard to be bullied by a non executive Director

He founded the company.

Barrhead Travel started life in 1975, as one small shop in a Glasgow suburb. Founder Bill Munro set up with just 4 employees after he grew bored of working in banking and decided that travel was where the opportunities lay.

http://www.barrheadtravel.co.uk/corporate/about-us
You don't think that might be a little intimidating to his employees?

 

[gosub]

He got bought out by management about 5 years ago led by his daughter and as I said has been scratching around for a role. He's had a formidable career, which intimidates me into not ruling out the EU affect on ABTA however unlikely it seems to me. He's certainly sticking to it.

 

[DexterTCN]

...http://www.barrheadtravel.co.uk/corporate/about-us

He was a fucking banker?

 

[weepiper]

He was a fucking banker?

Once a Tory etc

 

[DexterTCN]

Once a Tory etc

tbh the whole thing stank of a rangers fan.

 

[weepiper]

tbh the whole thing stank of a rangers fan.

I couldn't possibly comment

ION, voter registration is rocketing

an increase of nearly 60,000 voters since December 2012.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26845094

 

[DownwardDog]

Of course there is in general, but in this case it doesn't amount to bullying.

You're forgetting that we are working with the new and contemporary definition of "bullying" which is any behaviour for which the interlocutor doesn't care.

 

[gosub]

You're forgetting that we are working with the new and contemporary definition of "bullying" which is any behaviour for which the interlocutor doesn't care.

I don't care for that definition, an activity that can do real harm and leave lasting scars is lost by dilution

 

[marty21]

He is entitled to his opinion, and to express it. But a memo to all staff is a strange way to express political opinions. It will come across as intimidating to staff members.

Had he written to the Herald, or the Record, then his staff would know his views, and wouldn't feel threatened.

I agree - his 800 staff members have no right of reply - they could be sacked if they sent an email to everyone else expressing their views - boycotting the company as has been suggested by some is a difficult one - because it would affect the staff as well as the idiot in charge

 

[weepiper]

BSkyB (one of Scotland's largest private sector employers) have also sent round an internal memo... which says 'meh... it's up to you, we're not going anywhere regardless of the outcome'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26871555