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Will you vote for independence?

Scottish independence?

  • Yes please

    Votes: 99 56.6%

  • No thanks

    Votes: 57 32.6%

  • Dont know yet

    Votes: 17 9.7%
  • Total voters
    175
JTG said:
Right.

Can anyone think of a better way to spend that money than on a pointless poll that carries no legal weight?
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There are some significant constitutional issues around Scottish devolution and its impact on the rest of the UK that the rest of the UK hasn't ever had a referendum on.

Scottish MPs being able to vote on issues that don't impact on their constituencies, only the English and Welsh, or just England being a big one.

The independence vote could be a good opportunity for the rest of the country to renegotiate some of these issues and hold a referendum on them. Personally I think the entire devolution situation was botched, and we probably should have ended up with something along the lines of parliaments for each home nation that had the same decision making powers as each other for those nations, plus an overall UK parliament that covered all the other issues such as foreign affairs, defence etc.

Or even better, parliaments for each region, as the English regions mainly get shafted by London.

I'm aware this probably conflicts with my previous concerns about the loss of the influence of Scottish Labout MPs.
 
Years ago I read a fascinating book, "The rise and fall of the great empires" or something similar, I forget the author but it explained the stages countries had gone through as they built empires and expanded until they reached a point of loss of control and then after a period went into decline.

Britain has gone through those states and we are in the process of decline. The Roman empire is long gone, Rome a shadow of its former self, the Mongol empire is gone, a tiny fraction of its former self.

Do we want the remnants of Britain to continue in decline until we find Wiltshire wants to cease being in the same state as Dorset and the isle of Wight wants independence.

At some point something else has to make logical sense.

What makes sense in this case is that England, Wales and Scotland are all together on a small damp island, we are surrounded by sea we make sense as a unit, geographically, geologically, we speak broadly the same language, have been neighbours for aeons have interbred, traded, travelled and shared our lives for generations.

Just as it makes sense the island of Ireland will one day be united, it makes sense England, Scotland and Wales should remain united.

At least, it makes sense to me, from where I come, my mother being 100% Scottish and my Father being 90% English!
 
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Lemon Eddy said:
One example is from a conversation on independence, one from a conversation on tennis, one regarding school, one a definition from urban dictionary, one about golf...but they can all be dismissed because it's all about football, and you don't like football. And despite being Scottish you have a "posh" accent, so if guffy was an anti-english insult then you'd have heard it.

Let us know which bit I've summarised wrong please?
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Six of your links are from football forums or strongly football influenced (ie Fatshaft on a golf board) - One tennis thread and true I don't know where Twitter/FB are coming from. When was Urbandictionary an authority on anything? Anyone can post any old shite there.

I take it you see my point now? I don't disagree that you will find racists in football and IRL but that does not equate to a wave of outright racism in Scotland or even the North East as a whole!
 
weltweit said:
There should also be a vote for non Scottish people to see if they want the union to stay together. Even if it had no political mandate over the scots we would have the opportunity to have our say on the future of the union.
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This has already happened - repeatedly. Why the need to do it again?
 
pogofish said:
Six of your links are from football forums or strongly football influenced (ie Fatshaft on a golf board) - One tennis thread and true I don't know where Twitter/FB are coming from. When was Urbandictionary an authority on anything? Anyone can post any old shite there.

I take it you see my point now? I don't disagree that you will find racists in football and IRL but that does not equate to a wave of outright racism in Scotland or even the North East as a whole!
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Racism can be expressed through football. Noting that it happens through one form is only to admit that it exists, you're agreeing with the person pointing this out. To say that because it exists in that form then it's not coming from something else is to deny that it exists.
 
pogofish said:
Six of your links are from football forums or strongly football influenced (ie Fatshaft on a golf board) - One tennis thread and true I don't know where Twitter/FB are coming from. When was Urbandictionary an authority on anything?
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You have some backhistory with that particular racist. I don't, but either way don't understand how this dismisses his post as evidence of racism. The other links you can read to see where they come from and relate to. And urban dictionary is far from an authority, but do you really believe the use case posted there was just something completely random that happened to coincide with my description?

If you want examples of racism, then funnily enough I will need to quote racist sources. The most prevalent examples for that will probably involve football, on the grounds it's the most popular internet forum subject in Scotland. Are you really arguing that football fans in Scotland are not representative of general opinions?
 
pogofish said:
I know that - and Football has been the primary vehicle for the vast majority of racism and bigotry that I've experienced in my life.
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So, when eddy says that anti-english racism exists and is real, what is the point of you saying that it's mostly expressed through football? Are you backing him up? Criticising his point? What?
 
weltweit said:
Perhaps I misunderstand you pogofish, when did it happen?
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The Labour party maintained a commitment to Scottish independence from its very foundation right up to recent times - It was one of the things that was quietly dropped alongside Clause 4.

So every vote for a Labour government before 97 has also been a vote for Scottish Independence - and how often have Scottish Labour had a true majority in the Scottish vote?
 
pogofish said:
The Labour party maintained a commitment to Scottish independence from its very foundation right up to recent times - It was one of the things that was quietly dropped alongside Clause 4.

So every vote for a Labour government before 97 has also been a vote for Scottish Independence.
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Can you back this up? That's a very big claim. It's wrong.
 
weltweit said:
Wasn't intended to be.
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I have not the words. Either you're trolling*, or you really haven't considered at all how ignorant your statements are from a social** or scientific*** perspective.


* congratulations, you managed to post offensive statements on the internet. Have a fucking badge.
** so immigrants aren't Scottish, even for the first 5 generations or more
*** have you ever seen that old "humans and chimpanzees have 96% identical DNA" thing? Just what difference in DNA would you expect between (for example) a Scot and a German?
 
Lemon Eddy said:
I have not the words. Either you're trolling*, or you really haven't considered at all how ignorant your statements are from a social** or scientific*** perspective.


* congratulations, you managed to post offensive statements on the internet. Have a fucking badge.
** so immigrants aren't Scottish, even for the first 5 generations or more
*** have you ever seen that old "humans and chimpanzees have 96% identical DNA" thing? Just what difference in DNA would you expect between (for example) a Scot and a German?
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Bloody hell. Alright remove the "genetic" from my post! erase it.
My origins are in large part Scottish, is that acceptable?
 
Scotland should be a republic and enjoy being that, having its own dignity. Thats what the heart of Scots people want. But its not simple.
 
butchersapron said:
So, when eddy says that anti-english racism exists and is real, what is the point of you saying that it's mostly expressed through football? Are you backing him up? Criticising his point? What?
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I'm not denying racism exists but his determination in claiming that "Guffy" is some Scots/Doric hate term for the English or in any way pre-eminent - Except it seems in the football/sporting context. Its certainly not been that in any Doric I've heard spoken - Incl that from my mother's family in Aberdeenshire (from very near Inverurie), Buchan, The Broch or Aberdeen itself. Nor has Gem's husband - who grew-up less than a mile from me.
 
pogofish said:
I'm not denying racism exists but his determination in claiming that "Guffy" is some Scots/Doric hate term for the English or in any way pre-eminent - Except it seems in the football/sporting context. Its certainly not been that in any Doric I've heard spoken
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Going to go out on a limb here, and say I've probably had more anti-english abuse directed at me in Scotland than you have. But if you could just give us an idea of how many references I need to cite before you'll accept it that would be useful.
 
 
I have. Can you back up your claim. The labour party has been unionist since at least WW2. You claimed that it openly supported scottish independence until the mid 90s. You're wrong.
 
Lemon Eddy said:
Going to go out on a limb here, and say I've probably had more anti-english abuse directed at me in Scotland than you have. But if you could just give us an idea of how many references I need to cite before you'll accept it that would be useful.
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Cite as many as you like - It won't change the fact that I've never heard it used as anti-English until you came out with it.

And even then, most of the anti English sentiment I've heard all my life (and I have heard a lot of that!) has been entirely directed at England as a country/political institution or in "the establishment" context - but only seldom has it descended to the individual and then mainly as light banter. Hostile/racist anti-Englishness against individuals has been very rare indeed.
 
butchersapron said:
I have. Can you back up your claim. The labour party has been unionist since at least WW2. You claimed that it openly supported scottish independence until the mid 90s. You're wrong.
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It was never dropped though right through that period - this was a source of some rancour between aspects of Labour membership and the SNP for a very long time but yes, they did go very quiet on it - until the tidy-up when the two parties really hitched themselves together under New Labour.
 
pogofish said:
Cite as many as you like - It won't change the fact that I've never heard it used as anti-English until you came out with it.
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So to recap, however many examples I can find and cite of its usage as a racist insult, that won't matter to you because you've never heard it used so.

Honestly, if I wanted a better example of just how anti-english abuse is swept under the carpet, I would struggle to provide one. Thanks!
 
Lemon Eddy said:
Honestly, if I wanted a better example of just how anti-english abuse is swept under the carpet, I would struggle to provide one. Thanks!
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Except I'm not trying to sweep anything under the carpet - I've not got time for racism in any form but I have never heard it used that way!
 
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