Will you vote for independence?

[redsquirrel]

belboid? Anyone?

I Know Where I'm Going?

 

[butchersapron]

I Know Where I'm Going?

Good lad

 

[redsquirrel]

Scotland should be a republic and enjoy being that, having its own dignity. Thats what the heart of Scots people want. But its not simple.

Dear god, here comes one of the few people that can make Quartz and weltweit look like intellectual geniuses.

Do you have any evidence that a majority of Scottish people want a Republic?

 

[Cheesypoof]

Dear god, here comes one of the few people that can make Quartz and weltweit look like intellectual geniuses.

errmmmm. why you say that?

 

[pogofish]

Oh leave it mate, it was never a policy so it was never dropped. It doesn't matter either way.

On the contrary - It was one of the three founding policies and although it certainly lapsed due to and post-WW2, it didn't go away completely and remained a subject of political contention in Scotland - I recall Bruce Watson of the SNP speaking forcefully on this as a kid (1970s). Then it was re-established as policy by Labour in 1974 and we know what became of that! Then the Scottish Constitutional Convention chided Labour on their failure to do much with it several times in the years post 1980.

 

[butchersapron]

On the contrary - It was one of the three founding policies and although it certainly lapsed due to WW2, it didn't go away completely and remained a subject of political contention in Scotland - I recall Bruce Watson of the SNP speaking forcefully on this as a kid (1970s). Then it was re-established as policy by Labour in 1974 and we know what became of that! Then the Scottish Constitutional Convention chided Labour on their failure to do much with it several times in the years post 1980.

Which, of course, you will now link to.

 

[pogofish]

Quite a bit is covered here:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=qxzKAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=scottish home rule policy dropped new labour&source=bl&ots=yppOg0mVIP&sig=uXAV5vnFLL3JgFlli2zKH6drgQo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DU0uU677PIGKhQf98IG4Bg&ved=0CGEQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=scottish home rule policy dropped new labour&f=false

Bruce was a family friend, so I got that first hand.

 

[butchersapron]

...or link to something else failing to find a link supporting your claim.

 

[butchersapron]

Just point to the 60 year established policy, Should be easy, Instead of linking to people that are tying to fight for what you argued is already the rule.

 

[pogofish]

That's the point - Labour established the policy, then did next to nothing with it.

 

[butchersapron]

It wasn't established policy at all. Point to it if it was - as you claim that it was.

 

[pogofish]

...or link to something else failing to find a link supporting your claim.

Gordon Brown perhaps:

The Labour Party National Conference of 1918 added its voice,
supporting...“constituted separate legislative assemblies of Scotland,
Wales and England, with autonomous administration in matters of
local concerns”.

Pages 15-17 skirts round the matter nicely:

http://www.smith-institute.org.uk/file/NewScotlandNewBritain.pdf

Another article here:

http://www.independentlabour.org.uk/main/2012/10/19/a-labour-movement-alternative/

 

[butchersapron]

So no, you link to the labour party being supporters of the union.

 

[pogofish]

More supporters of the working classes rather than the union.

 

[butchersapron]

Look, this is getting daft, you claimed the LP explicitly supported scottish independence until the mid-90s. They didn't. I know this is true - but we've been round the houses and i don't want to turn a good thread into a personal ding dong about this, so i'm going to leave it there.

 

[pogofish]

Home Rule and independence meant more or less the same thing back then - Like the Irish model that inspired them. And yes, whilst it happened with very little fanfare due to the stushie surrounding Clause 4, the dropping of support for independence did attract a little coverage in the Scottish press - very much as an aside though, as the issue had been tired out by then.

 

[weltweit]

Dear god, here comes one of the few people that can make Quartz and weltweit look like intellectual geniuses.

Thanks for that redsquirrel! I am sure you yourself and everyone else apart from me and Quartz are intellectual heavyweights! I don't understand this need to belittle others, lots of Urbanites do it, I don't see the need.

I notice no one has commented on my post below:

Years ago I read a fascinating book, "The rise and fall of the great empires" or something similar, I forget the author but it explained the stages countries had gone through as they built empires and expanded until they reached a point of loss of control and then after a period went into decline.

Britain has gone through those states and we are in the process of decline. The Roman empire is long gone, Rome a shadow of its former self, the Mongol empire is gone, a tiny fraction of its former self.

Do we want the remnants of Britain to continue in decline until we find Wiltshire wants to cease being in the same state as Dorset and the isle of Wight wants independence.

At some point something else has to make logical sense.

What makes sense in this case is that England, Wales and Scotland are all together on a small damp island, we are surrounded by sea we make sense as a unit, geographically, geologically, we speak broadly the same language, have been neighbours for aeons have interbred, traded, travelled and shared our lives for generations.

Just as it makes sense the island of Ireland will one day be united, it makes sense England, Scotland and Wales should remain united.

At least, it makes sense to me, from where I come, my mother being 100% Scottish and my Father being 90% English!

 

[redsquirrel]

What do you want us to say? That clearly Scotland should remain part of the UK because of some book who's title you're not sure of, written by an author you can't remember made some banal comments about empires?

Though I do like the idea that the extent of states should be decided on a geological basis.

 

[andysays]

All Scottish people should have a vote at least, even if at the moment they don't live in Scotland...

In purely practical terms, there is currently no official test of "Scottishness" other than living in Scotland, so it's difficult to see how this might work.

Should independence go ahead, those identifying as Scots but living elsewhere will be able to claim Scots nationality, though this may still not include the right to vote in Scottish elections

 

[geminisnake]

I think it is a fair line to say that 16 year olds are relatively immature politically, certainly most of them.

Surely you are not arguing that a 16 year old is as mature as a 20 year old are you?

I was involved with politics before I was 10. I knew that Scotland could be a successful independent country as a teenager and have spent the last 30 yrs waiting for this vote.
Watch this and tell me this young lady knows nothing about politics. She knows how it affects her, her community and her country.

 

[Sue]

In purely practical terms, there is currently no official test of "Scottishness" other than living in Scotland, so it's difficult to see how this might work.

Sure we could come up with a few though... Knowing the three possible storylines in the Broons, familiarity with the lyrics of Ye canny shove yer granny off a bus, tendency to put everything and anything in a piece, that kind of thing...

 

[andysays]

Sure we could come up with a few though... Knowing the three possible storylines in the Broons, familiarity with the lyrics of Ye canny shove yer granny off a bus, tendency to put everything and anything in a piece, that kind of thing...

I'm afraid I'd fail all of your "true Scot" tests, so I'll just have to be content with watching Scotland slip away without myself having a voice...

 

[The Boy]

Knowing the three possible storylines in the Broons

Three were three?!?

 

[Frankie Jack]

 

[weltweit]

I was involved with politics before I was 10. I knew that Scotland could be a successful independent country as a teenager and have spent the last 30 yrs waiting for this vote.
Watch this and tell me this young lady knows nothing about politics. She knows how it affects her, her community and her country.

You maybe, but for me I knew nothing of politics as such an age, neither do my kid or their buddies.
I doubt even you would suggest 10 year olds have the vote!

 

[danny la rouge]

Genetically I am 50% Scottish, 50% English and perhaps my big toe is French. ETA and I was born in Deutschland!

I didn't want to get drawn into this, but can I just say this: nobody is genetically Scottish. Not in any degree. There is not such thing. Scotland is a political boundary, not a genome.

 

[weltweit]

I didn't want to get drawn into this, but can I just say this: nobody is genetically Scottish. Not in any degree. There is not such thing. Scotland is a political boundary, not a genome.

Yes, I was picked up on this. I assume it is ok to say that my origins are Scottish?

 

[weltweit]

A shared history, a shared language, a small damp island surrounded by sea!

The United Kingdom has value, let's stay together!

 

[geminisnake]

I doubt even you would suggest 10 year olds have the vote!

WTF?? Where did I suggest that?
A 16 yr old can work (and get married up here) why the feck should they not get a say in where those taxes go?
And you can shove your United Kingdom, the system is broken, we have a chance to fix our bit of it and I truly hope we take it.

 

[weltweit]

WTF?? Where did I suggest that?

You didn't as I mentioned but you were proposing that you were mature enough at 10!

A 16 yr old can work (and get married up here) why the feck should they not get a say in where those taxes go?

It does not bother me so much, except that many 16 year olds will not have had much international experience and may not even have spent any time south of Hadrian's wall.

Salmond would not have done it unless he thought it would give him an advantage so I expect the younger voters will include more yes voters than no. In that way it is a little underhand.