Will you vote for independence?

[geminisnake]

Football has been the primary vehicle for anti-racism that I've experienced in my life. There we go

I think you and weeps have to appreciate the age difference going on here You are both early/mid 30s iirc. Mr fish is a good decade+ older. He and I remember the soccer casuals and mindless bigoted violence that went hand in hand with football in the early 80s. I'm glad things have moved on, they bloody well needed to. But I still don't like getting on any train that is full of football fans, tbh I just won't. I remember people/families avoiding going into town/going out in the evenings when certain teams were playing

Anyway, that has nowt to do with independence, does it?

 

[geminisnake]

You didn't as I mentioned but you were proposing that you were mature enough at 10!

Salmond would not have done it unless he thought it would give him an advantage so I expect the younger voters will include more yes voters than no. In that way it is a little underhand.

No, I said I was involved in politics As for underhand, have you actually seen any of the NO campaign?

 

[Quartz]

Frankie Jack , strangely, I don't think that question - a greater union - has ever been asked of the Scots, and it might have some appeal.

 

[weltweit]

No, I said I was involved in politics As for underhand, have you actually seen any of the NO campaign?

I haven't seen much of either campaign no.

 

[Quartz]

have you actually seen any of the NO campaign?

No, and the Better Together shop on Union street has been deserted every time I've walked past.

(Not the question you asked but I couldn't resist)

 

[weltweit]

Personally, because I know not everyone feels this way, I find the current situation quite unsettling, first Scotland has a referendum about leaving the UK, I consider Scotland a vital part of the UK I can't really imagine the UK without Scotland or Scotland without its southern partners. That is unsettling enough but either way I think everyone still wants to remain in Europe, then there is Toff Cameron proposing if he is re-elected he will give us all a referendum on the EU. I am strongly pro UK and EU and now both of these are under question. As I mentioned, I find this unsettling.

 

[danny la rouge]

Yes, I was picked up on this. I assume it is ok to say that my origins are Scottish?

Yes.

 

[Frankie Jack]

Frankie Jack , strangely, I don't think that question - a greater union - has ever been asked of the Scots, and it might have some appeal.

Define greater union.

There's nothing that any Bitterthigither or Wastemonster politicians could say or promise that would make me vote No. I'm sick to the back teeth of every single one of them.

 

[Quartz]

There's nothing that any Bitterthigither or Wastemonster politicians could say or promise that would make me vote No. I'm sick to the back teeth of every single one of them.

What's the difference between a Westminster politician and a Holyrood one? And what's the difference between domination by London & the South East and domination by the Central Belt?

You'll have to refresh me as to why you're pro-independence.

 

[Frankie Jack]

Looking at the issue from my perspective. I live in an area where:

Almost all of the industry was decimated in the Thatcher years and has never recovered.
Has one of the highest unemployment figures in Scotland.
Is one of the most depressed areas in Scotland.
Has one of the worst performing labour run councils in Scotland.
Is home to Faslane nuclear submarine base just 10 miles away.
Has potential oil fields offshore that having Faslane here put the mockers on exploring.
Is expecting Wastemonster to allow more dumping of nuke waste into the sea around Faslane.
Has TWO of the most useless MP/MSPs that ever flounced around looking important.

Seriously, what can Bitterthigither promise for this area to change anything?

Absolutely nothing.

Oh and not forgetting if it's a Yes vote they apparently won't let any MOD shipbuilding contracts to the last yard on the Clyde as it'll be a foreign country.

 

[Lemon Eddy]

belboid? Anyone?

Just turned the TV on and this is showing on bbc2.

 

[weltweit]

Looking at the issue from my perspective. I live in an area where:

Almost all of the industry was decimated in the Thatcher years and has never recovered.
Has one of the highest unemployment figures in Scotland.
Is one of the most depressed areas in Scotland.
Has one of the worst performing labour run councils in Scotland.
Is home to Faslane nuclear submarine base just 10 miles away.
Has potential oil fields offshore that having Faslane here put the mockers on exploring.
Is expecting Wastemonster to allow more dumping of nuke waste into the sea around Faslane.
Has TWO of the most useless MP/MSPs that ever flounced around looking important.

Seriously, what can Bitterthigither promise for this area to change anything?

Absolutely nothing.

Oh and not forgetting if it's a Yes vote they apparently won't let any MOD shipbuilding contracts to the last yard on the Clyde as it'll be a foreign country.

All that may be true but it does not suggest to me which way you could vote.

Why for example independence rather than a Scottish parliament within the UK.

 

[Frankie Jack]

All that may be true but it does not suggest to me which way you could vote.

Why for example independence rather than a Scottish parliament within the UK.

That was only my perspective from this area. It's near identical in my home area of Fife/The Forth.

With the full powers of Independence I'll have a parliament 70 miles away that I can actually get to and shake a pointy stick at rather than be just a nameless pleb among 60+ millions that Wastemonster, 350 miles away, doesn't give a flying fuck about and has brought in legislation that means I can't shake a stick at even if I could get there.

What difference can Holyrood staying within the UK make in all seriousness.

I do wonder if those who would stay in the UK have really felt the sheer brutality of the polices of Wastemonster over the past few years. Those same policies that will carry on even with a change from this vile coalition to a Labour controlled one.

SLabs 'Wee Red Pamphlet' is a fucking joke.

Time for real change. Not more of the same with added bullshit.

 

[Frankie Jack]

To add, As geminisnake posted further back with regard to age, I'm over 55 and absolutely sick of the UK government bullshit. Outdated and in need of it's own type of shock doctrine.

 

[Quartz]

Looking at the issue from my perspective. I live in an area where:

Are not many of those issues the responsibilities of you and your fellow local voters? Why do you continue to elect a useless local council? Why do you continue to elect 'TWO of the most useless MP/MSPs that ever flounced around looking important'? Why do your local councils not encourage new businesses?

I do wonder if those who would stay in the UK have really felt the sheer brutality of the polices of Wastemonster over the past few years.

I've yet to decide which way to vote, but I've felt the sheer brutality of the results of their policies. But I do note you've said nothing positive about Holyrood rule apart from it being rather closer. Closer it may be, but ironically for me in Aberdeen, the Caledonian Sleeper means it's a lot more convenient to go and protest in London than go and protest in Edinburgh.

 

[Frankie Jack]

Are not many of those issues the responsibilities of you and your fellow local voters? Why do you continue to elect a useless local council? Why do you continue to elect 'TWO of the most useless MP/MSPs that ever flounced around looking important'? Why do your local councils not encourage new businesses?

The apathy of the voters here is similar to the rest of the UK. Putting an x on the faces/party they're used to. The indyref movement has woken so many to the realities of who and what you vote for and get. That's a real bonus. Many are sickened to see Jackie Belly schmoozing with the local Tory groups over indyref that I think her coat is on a shaky nail now. As for the other one. Jemma Doyle, Never seen or heard on any local area issues, or at all to be honest. Both have been well noted. As for either of them, or the local 'part time cooncillors' trying to get new business to the area.. They're closing than opening. Does a new Waitrose in Helensburgh count?

I've yet to decide which way to vote, but I've felt the sheer brutality of the results of their policies. But I do note you've said nothing positive about Holyrood rule apart from it being rather closer. Closer it may be, but ironically for me in Aberdeen, the Caledonian Sleeper means it's a lot more convenient to go and protest in London than go and protest in Edinburgh.

My 'close enough to shake a pointy stick at' was more analogy than reality to be honest. Although it's better IMHO to have parliament here that actually represents Scotland rather than the multifaceted desires and wastes of HoC and HoL who try too hard to fill their own boots and interests.

The positive of Holyrood rule for me is finally getting rid of the base at Faslane and concentrating on that area for growth whether it be for use by new Scot forces or for oil exploration. Shipbuilding back on the clyde for our own fleet use.

Having renewable projects directed by Holyrood and not contracted out for private profit and not having to wait for permissions/denials from HOC.

The real work starts after a yes vote to make sure all the bad habits of London don't creep up here with the ex MPs who will no doubt be scrambling for seats.

There's a fair few I'd welcome as fine MPs from the Labour benches to come up and get stuck in. Others... not so much.

 

[Quartz]

The positive of Holyrood rule for me is finally getting rid of the base at Faslane and concentrating on that area for growth whether it be for use by new Scot forces or for oil exploration. Shipbuilding back on the clyde for our own fleet use.

My father used to work there after the war. But there's no guarantee that a Scottish government will build ships there.

Having renewable projects directed by Holyrood and not contracted out for private profit

I fear you may be being optimistic.

The real work starts after a yes vote to make sure all the bad habits of London don't creep up here with the ex MPs who will no doubt be scrambling for seats.

Very true.

 

[geminisnake]

I haven't seen much of either campaign no.

Until you have I suggest you don't stoop as low as the No side of slagging wee Eck for absolutely everything(which IS what they do)
Alex Salmond is one man, who has been pro independence right from the word go afaik. He is not the root of all evil, though he has done some dodgy shit. I suggest doing some proper research then come back to us with some ideas
Everyone on the Yes side has asked for one good reason not to vote Yes, and strangely all we have gotten is scare tactics and threats. And we've been getting that for years.
The UK Govt did NOT want to invest in the oil that was discovered about 40 yrs ago, and I've been hearing that it is going to run out virtually all of my life, and strangely I am nearly 50 and it's not run out yet. Now do you get an inkling as to why I don't believe Wastemonster?

 

[weltweit]

geminisnake last year exploratory drilling was at a significant low compared to earlier years, most of the production rigs are mature (often 20 years old) and reaching the end of their lives. There will have to be stability, certainty and significant investment to maintain the health of the North Sea oil industry.

 

[geminisnake]

The oil companies chose to lower the explorations because Gideon has raised the oil tax by 20%. The companies are spending the time decommissioning and refitting rigs. I KNOW this because I see the bloody things every week getting taken to and from Dundee. Hubby speaks to off shore workers every week.

The oil companies are sick of the taxes going up for no reason other than Wastemonster are a bunch of greedy corrupt pricks. The oil won't disappear, there are plenty of new fields off the west coast that haven't even been started. Please don't claim 'oh it'll cost too much to extract' because I've been hearing that for too fecking long too

And there is more to the economic future of Scotland than one thing. LOOK at the figures. The Govt's own figures show that Scotland has the financial ability to be independent.

 

[weltweit]

... The oil companies are sick of the taxes going up for no reason other than Wastemonster are a bunch of greedy corrupt pricks. The oil won't disappear, there are plenty of new fields off the west coast that haven't even been started. Please don't claim 'oh it'll cost too much to extract' because I've been hearing that for too fecking long too

No, I wouldn't claim that, there is a big industry around North Sea Oil and it isn't going to go away any time soon. I don't know the detail of Westminster tax changes but under Westminster or Holyrood it has to make sense to the oil companies to invest in the North Sea rather than for example offshore Angola.

 

[DairyQueen]

...or link to something else failing to find a link supporting your claim.

Actually, the book claims "Home Rule" as far as I can tell. That is basically a Scottish Parliament within the UK. If you go to the Scottish Parliament you can see they claim this to be "the settled will of the Scottish people".

 

[DairyQueen]

The Labour Party has been one of the primary drivers of Scottish independence, but due to their incompetence and general ambivalence toward Scotland. Let's all be worldly socialists* now!!!!

*The Labour Party does not advocate socialism, communism or any derivatives thereof.

 

[redsquirrel]

That is unsettling enough but either way I think everyone still wants to remain in Europe

Right so why do polls consistently show a significant number of people wanting to leave the EU?

Now personally, I think that if an in/out EU referendum was to be held then the result would be a narrow win for the remain in option but to claim that "everyone" in either Scotland or the rest of the UK want to remain in Europe is staggering. Particularly coming from a man who's attacking other peoples ignorance.

 

[weltweit]

Right so why do polls consistently show a significant number of people wanting to leave the EU?

Yes, a significant number of people seem to want to leave the EU.

Now personally, I think that if an in/out EU referendum was to be held then the result would be a narrow win for the remain in option but to claim that "everyone" in either Scotland or the rest of the UK want to remain in Europe is staggering. Particularly coming from a man who's attacking other peoples ignorance.

I don't know who you are referring to with your last comment.
I haven't attacked anyone, for any reason, nor do I intend to.

Salmond wants to remain in the EU. Clegg and Milliband want to remain in the EU, and Cameron is a dick!

 

[JTG]

.

 

[TheHoodedClaw]

Salmond wants to remain in the EU. Clegg and Milliband want to remain in the EU, and Cameron is a dick!

Cameron is indeed a dick, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't want to leave the EU either.

 

[weltweit]

What I don't understand, is why a Scottish MSPs are not enough. Perhaps they need more powers but I would have thought that level of devolution should be enough.

So for those thinking yes, why does full independence appeal so much more than devolution?

 

[weltweit]

Cameron is indeed a dick, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't want to leave the EU either.

A referendum is a risk, who knows how people will vote, UKIP would make hay scaring people and the little Englanders would have a field day. As I think I mentioned up the thread, the Scottish referendum AND the prospect of an EU referendum I find quite unsettling.

So, we really could have Scotland leave, and depart the EU in as many years, it does not bear thinking about!

 

[DairyQueen]

A referendum is a risk, who knows how people will vote, UKIP would make hay scaring people and the little Englanders would have a field day. As I think I mentioned up the thread, the Scottish referendum AND the prospect of an EU referendum I find quite unsettling.

So, we really could have Scotland leave, and depart the EU in as many years, it does not bear thinking about!

It is idiots like you that undermine democracy.