Will you vote for independence?

[weepiper]

Well, the march for independence was quite interesting. The BBC says 8000, I'd say it was well into double figures as they closed Calton Hill before everybody had got on. I stood watching the march go down the Bridges for ten minutes and there was no end in sight before I joined back on to continue. There wasn't a single SNP logo in sight that I saw - Scottish Greens, SSP and Radical Independence all very prominent along with several union banners, James Connolly Society, lots of random European small-state-wanting-independence solidarity groups (Catalans, South Tyrol, Sardinians etc). I stayed for 4 speeches, Sanjeev Kohli, Elaine C Smith, Margo MacDonald and Dennis Canavan. Noticeably all of them were strongly socialist in tone, a big emphasis on how Westminster fails the working classes and this is our chance for a fairer system etc. Some of them actively anti-SNP which was interesting. Margo MacDonald had a big go at New Labour too. All of them had a pop at the Tories. The biggest cheer of the day was for Dennis Canavan when he was talking about abolishing the Bedroom Tax.

 

[Frankie Jack]

Great Rally. Still bouncing in my head. Can hardly walk today though. Hirpling about like a half shut pen knife. Laughed at Aunty Beeb saying there were 8.500 people there. Can only imagine they had no reporters there as 30.000+ seems to be the figures bandied about.. even by the police at the time. There must've been 10.000 on the bit o' the hill I was on.

Was a barry day oot all in all.

 

[Quartz]

Quartz , are you applying for this? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-pNext >olitics-24162215# Audience plea for TV debate programme.

I don't know your occupation, but they are looking for "people working in, or who have an interest in, Scotland's arts and entertainment industry".

Thanks but I don't think they'd be interested in piss-artists.

Well, the march for independence was quite interesting.

I'm glad you had a good time.

 

[danny la rouge]

Joyce McMillan gives her take on why the Lib Dem's vague offers of "more devolution" if we vote No should be treated with caution:

Yet when it comes to the big picture of 21st century western politics, there are essentially just two horses in the race. The one is about the faint but worthwhile chance of creating a viable social democracy for the 21st century; the other is about colluding with a neoliberal global system that has failed, that has forced ordinary citizens to pay for its failure, and that is now pumping out a barrage of vicious and oppressive lies – about austerity, about the poor, about “tough choices” – in order to cover its tracks. And so long as Nick Clegg remains so firmly and smugly mounted on that second horse, it is hard to believe that he has any credible interest in making sure that the first one wins the race; here in Scotland, or anywhere else

http://joycemcmillan.wordpress.com/...s-should-be-handled-with-care-column-20-9-13/

 

[Sue]

Not surprised that Cameron's refused a debate with Salmond -- obviously he doesn't want Salmond to appear to be on the same level as him, never mind that he would play really badly with the electorate -- but interesting he's said the debate should be with Alastair Darling instead. Reinforces the 'Labour in bed with the Tories' thing, if Darling is at least up on the issues.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-24297286

 

[DexterTCN]

Not surprised that Cameron's refused a debate with Salmond -- obviously he doesn't want Salmond to appear to be on the same level as him, never mind that he would play really badly with the electorate -- but interesting he's said the debate should be with Alastair Darling instead. Reinforces the 'Labour in bed with the Tories' thing, if Darling is at least up on the issues.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-24297286

So....none of the leaders of the parties are up for a one v one against Salmond?

Cameron wants a Labour MP to 'carry the flag' as it were? (Alistair Darling)

It is not a debate between the prime minister of the UK and the first minister of Scotland

 

[butchersapron]

How does the effect your vote? Your are not relevant.

 

[gosub]

None of the other leaders have a vote

 

[weepiper]

None of the other leaders have a vote

But we're being asked to choose whether we stay in the country Cameron is Prime Minister of or not. I think it should be him. There isn't anyone in Scotland who has enough of an influence in the public eye to have a debate with Salmond. Ruth Davidson? Don't make me laugh. The Scottish Tories are an irrelevance just now. Likewise Johann Lamont and Willie Rennie. If you're having a televised debate it needs to be the big guns or nobody will be interested.

 

[butchersapron]

None of the other leaders have a vote

Are you still a UKIP member gosub?

 

[weepiper]

Re the numbers attending the rally btw Police Scotland have confirmed it was between 20-30,000 people

 

[gosub]

Are you still a UKIP member gosub?

Never have been, worked the referendum party but thats as close as i got

 

[RedDragon]

I'll miss having Scotland as part of my cultural heritage.

 

[danny la rouge]

None of the other leaders have a vote

Not having a vote in the referendum hasn't stopped David Cameron campaigning in favour of the Union.

Indeed, it didn't stop him "urging English members of cabinet to help fight against Scottish independence". Which seems very much the opposite of the principle you suggest.

- "Sources close to the Prime Minister confirmed he will ask the English members of his Cabinet to “spread the word” about the benefits of the UK in their constituencies"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...help-fight-against-Scottish-independence.html

It didn't stop Cameron coming to Edinburgh to have a say on what kind of Scotland he wants to see:

"I want a Scotland where more people own their own homes. Where more people keep more of their money. With secure jobs and a secure future for their children.

A Scotland where businesses can innovate and create the wealth and opportunities so vital to local communities breaking down the barriers to entrepreneurship that have for too long held Scotland back".

http://www.newstatesman.com/uk-politics/2012/02/united-kingdom-scotland-world

Nor did it stop him coming to Stirling to talk about why he opposes Scottish independence:

"In a speech to Conservative activists at the Scottish party conference in Stirling today, the Prime Minister will argue that none of the key emerging issues confronting the UK and Scotland – from globalisation, to terror threats, to the country’s ageing population – require independence as their solution".

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...ependence-david-cameron-hails-union-1-2958188

And so on.

Cameron has not sworn himself off commenting on the referendum; far from it - he has come to Scotland on several occasions to campaign for a No vote. As, indeed, you would expect a Unionist to do. He is the prime minister of a state he wants to continue to exist. Of course he will come to Scotland to have his say. And so he should.

It's just that he won't take part in a debate with Salmond.

 

[danny la rouge]

I'll miss having Scotland as part of my cultural heritage.

No you won't.

First of all, the odds are against Scotland voting Yes. Secondly, the shared heritage won't vanish even if Yes wins. I can't imagine anything you value evaporating because the Union is dismantled. (Unless, of course, it's the Union itself that you value).

 

[gosub]

I don't know, I go to Dublin and listen patiently to what the English did. I think my family only just had the vote when they left. Still, absolves them from the worst excesses of the Empire (whilst leaving stuff like boer war memorials intact. ) Hard to get them to see it through a prism of class which in that instance would bet be far more relevant

 

[Casually Red]

Hard to get them to see it through a prism of class which in that instance won't be far more relevant

to see what

 

[gosub]

to see what

changed cos swift key pretty reversed what i was saying.

that the majority of those on mainland Britain had about as much say in what was going on as they did.


Mind you, the airbrush has gone even further, was talking to a Trinity graduate sister of friend last month,who was drably relaying how a Belgian colleague explained to her that the problem with the Irish was that they were never conquered by Napolian. As someone who spent many years in the shadow of Stratfield Saye seemed bizarre to me that an Irish graduate forced to be fluent in Gaeilc for identity reasons would have no clue as to who Arthur Wellesey was.

 

[danny la rouge]

gosub, I have no idea what you're on about, nor what its relevance is to the current discussion. Unless you're saying Cameron in some way resembles Wellington, or, at a further remove, the Anglo Irish nobility.

 

[gosub]

It feels to me kids coming through the Irish education system are taught purely of 200 years of Nation based oppression a Dublin born Prime Minister and General doesn't fit with that so lets not teach it. Found it mental at the time, cos she was retelling it as this Belgian had given her some profound wisdom, oblivious to the irony that it was an Irishman who defeated Napoleon, in Belgium.

You boldly claim the shared heritage won't vanish even if Yes wins, and can't see examples of how its happened with Eire as relevent

 

[butchersapron]

What shared anglo-irish heritage that has disappeared are you talking about.

 

[danny la rouge]

It feels to me kids coming through the Irish education system are taught purely of 200 years of Nation based oppression a Dublin born Prime Minister and General doesn't fit with that so lets not teach it. Found it mental at the time, cos she was retelling it as this Belgian had given her some profound wisdom, oblivious to the irony that it was an Irishman who defeated Napoleon, in Belgium.

You boldly claim the shared heritage won't vanish even if Yes wins, and can't see examples of how its happened with Eire as relevent

I thought you were still talking about Cameron.

OK. It wasn't obvious from your first telling what your point about Wellington was. All you said was that a Belgian said the Irish were never conquered by Napoleon, not even whether the Trinity graduate agreed with the point.

It isn't strange to me that a graduate of anywhere would have gaps in their education. Was this Trinity graduate a history major? Do we actually know they didn't know who Wellington was? Was the argument about Napoleon not invading Ireland a good one? He never did invade Ireland, you know. (Although I think he did plan to at one stage).

I once gave a seminar to a class of students at teacher training college who didn't know who Einstein was. I had a routine worked out about Einstein's school report cards, but the point I was making crashed and burned when they all stared at me with blank faces when I revealed the identity of the child.

So, yes, some people may be unaware of aspects of the heritage. They are now. But the heritage won't vanish, and RedDragon won't have to relinquish anything. If s/he likes Robert Burns, Neil Gunn, or Sorely MacLean, s/he still can. If s/he listens to Mogwai, Jesus and Mary Chain, or Teenage Fanclub, s/he still can. If s/he likes visiting the Edinburgh Festival, Glasgow Kelvingrove Gallery, or the Bonnie Banks of Loch Lomond, s/he still can.

 

[danny la rouge]

And I'd actually be astonished if you were to tell me that Irish graduates didn't know about the Anglo-Irish aristocracy and their role in the history of these islands. Almost every Irish person you meet, graduate or not, mentions them at some point or other in the course of a night in the pub.

 

[Casually Red]

changed cos swift key pretty reversed what i was saying.

that the majority of those on mainland Britain had about as much say in what was going on as they did.


Mind you, the airbrush has gone even further, was talking to a Trinity graduate sister of friend last month,who was drably relaying how a Belgian colleague explained to her that the problem with the Irish was that they were never conquered by Napolian. As someone who spent many years in the shadow of Stratfield Saye seemed bizarre to me that an Irish graduate forced to be fluent in Gaeilc for identity reasons would have no clue as to who Arthur Wellesey was.

well, with the events of 1798 and 1803 in mind itd be a bit difficult to have been conquered by an ally, bearing in mind Wolfe Tone and many other associates being commissioned French officers . Im also minded of an infamous quote by Wellsley that being born in a stable doesnt make one a horse. And with all due respect the requirement for learning gaelic was as a result of repeated majorities of Irish people in the free state voting over the past almost hundred years for political parties with noticably gaelic names..namely Sinn Fein, Fianna Fail, Fine Gael..which would indicate they had a political platform which placed some importance on cultural sovereignty and that the majority of Irish people identified with that aspect to one extent or another . So being forced doesnt really enter the equation . Its not as if speaking english was outlawed or anything, as was done with gaelic when the shoe was on the other foot leading to its near extinction. Its culturally pluralistic.

It feels to me kids coming through the Irish education system are taught purely of 200 years of Nation based oppression a Dublin born Prime Minister and General doesn't fit with that so lets not teach it. Found it mental at the time, cos she was retelling it as this Belgian had given her some profound wisdom, oblivious to the irony that it was an Irishman who defeated Napoleon, in Belgium.

You boldly claim the shared heritage won't vanish even if Yes wins, and can't see examples of how its happened with Eire as relevent

well id have thought it was more like 800 years, but there you go . And the last time I checked it was the Prussians who saved an almost defeated Wellsleys backside at the last minute, but then again the British education system has a habit of teaching its students that we won the woer, when very often Britain had its bacon saved by Americans , Russians , Prussians etc in a very large multinational alliance .

They were still flying the union jack outside Trinity well into the 1950s btw .

 

[Casually Red]

Was the argument about Napoleon not invading Ireland a good one? He never did invade Ireland, you know. (Although I think he did plan to at one stage).

.

Many Irish people were hoping hed do just that, and Irish leaders pleaded with him to do so .

 

[Casually Red]

And I'd actually be astonished if you were to tell me that Irish graduates didn't know about the Anglo-Irish aristocracy and their role in the history of these islands. Almost every Irish person you meet, graduate or not, mentions them at some point or other in the course of a night in the pub.

half the streets in Dublin are still, shamefully imo, named after them .

 

[Casually Red]

that the majority of those on mainland Britain had about as much say in what was going on as they did.

i think ive just spotted the glaring flaw in your failure to win your provincial relatives round to your point of view . Leaving aside your previous assertion that they werent looking at things through a class prism and then complaining they werent being taught enough about their cultural heritage via the prism of various grandees of the British aristocracy .
But anyways you should be happy to note that Irish labour leader Eammon Gilmore, that red faced heavily elocuted , up his own la dee dah west briton arse former stalinist, free marketeering fuck,...pardon my french..has announced theyll be including the British monarchy and military in their little quisling states celebration of the 1916 uprising centenary. An event they refused to commemorate for over a quarter century .

so it would appear those who share your outlook have indeed won out, and the greatness of the empire will once again be imparted to little Irish boys and girls in school.

 

[danny la rouge]

half the streets in Dublin are still, shamefully imo, named after them .

Well, indeed: 1st Duke of Grafton "airbrushed" out of Dublin city centre.

It is a strange measure, in any case, of a shared heritage. I can think of many better measures.

 

[Casually Red]

Well, indeed: 1st Duke of Grafton "airbrushed" out of Dublin city centre.

It is a strange measure, in any case, of a shared heritage. I can think of many better measures.

well the national flag is a tricolour of green white and orange, and all that symbolises.

 

[butchersapron]

Well, indeed: 1st Duke of Grafton "airbrushed" out of Dublin city centre.

It is a strange measure, in any case, of a shared heritage. I can think of many better measures.

SS Hare?