Will you vote for independence?

[teuchter]

Ever heard the expression If I have to explain you won't understand?? That. It's not about the SNP or Labour, etc, it's about the country. My personal reasons may be political but not everyone's are

It seems rather arrogant to accuse people of being thick-skulled if they think it's a political issue, and then refuse to explain why you don't think it's a political issue.

Anyway, it seems that what you meant to say was that it's not a party-political issue. I think you were reacting to Silas Loom's comment about many Scots being Salmond-loathers. I don't think you can dismiss the relevance of this. It may well be possible to be pro-independence in principle and simultaneously a Salmond-loather. However, what we are discussing here is a referendum on independence where the question asked will refer to options with terms largely determined by Salmond etc. Or, as far as I can see, terms largely ill-defined by Salmond etc. This is one of the reasons I would not vote for independence at the moment. I think it would be foolish for anyone to vote for such a massive and significant change when there are so many unanswered questions, alongside the fact that what is on offer (from Salmond etc) includes certain things that appear to defeat the purpose of independence in the first place. Call those party-political reasons to be sceptical about the offer if you want, but I don't think it's fair to say that people are "thick-skulled" for adopting them.

 

[geminisnake]

I'm ill and I don't have to explain anything at the moment

Also if you are going to refer to something I said 2 weeks ago can you link/quote please, because I have an ABI and I don't remember what I wrote yesterday let alone weeks ago.

I can't remember but I was probably referring more to fb users with the thick skull comment, and cross posted, hence the confusion. It was an expression of exasperation due to hearing/reading the same nonsense trotted out by BT believers.

 

[Quartz]

Moving on, why does Salmond think it's a given that the rest of the U.K. should let an independent Scotland use the Pound? We've all seen how well currency union had worked on the Continent. I don't know which way I'll vote in the referendum but I also fail to see why an independent Scotland would want to keep the pound anyway. Apart from making it possible to keep blaming the English, of course.

 

[geminisnake]

Anyone can use any currency they want as I understand it. Several other countries use the US dollar. Why would we not keep the £, we're used to it. Maybe after a while we wouldn't want to use it anymore but for the transition period I don't see why not.
I think there is a substantial amount of scottish money tied up in it as well and I suspect the BofE may not want to lose that immediately.
You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about blaming the english

 

[ChocolateTeapot]

Moving on, why does Salmond think it's a given that the rest of the U.K. should let an independent Scotland use the Pound? We've all seen how well currency union had worked on the Continent. I don't know which way I'll vote in the referendum but I also fail to see why an independent Scotland would want to keep the pound anyway. Apart from making it possible to keep blaming the English, of course.

"should let"??? Are you perhaps suggesting that the rest of the U.K. somehow "own" the pound and Scotland has and has had no part in it? We should somehow have to beg to be allowed to use something that is as much ours as anyone else's ?

No idea what your second point is even supposed to be - is that an argument against the Euro, for the pound, both or neither?

Perhaps you might want to ask the Kiwis, Aussies or even the Irish how and why they managed post independence using the pound? Stability through a transitional period perhaps? Or maybe you can suggest Brendan was saying to Tiarnan in 1930 - "Now that we're independent, how about we get ourselves a new currency?" to which he replied "No, we'll stick with effective shadowing and a 1:1 exchange rate - just so we can blame the English".

Dearie me...

 

[Quartz]

No idea what your second point is even supposed to be - is that an argument against the Euro, for the pound, both or neither?

Just me being sardonic.

 

[Lemon Eddy]

Anyone can use any currency they want as I understand it.

No, they can't, at least not in any meaningful way. Scotland could declare they'll use the pound, but then they either have to:

a) buy all the sterling they need to distribute, or
b) create their own currency that's also called the pound, but actually isn't connected in any meaningful way, and so is valued completely independently of Sterling so might as well be called groats.
c) Establish a currency union setup similar to the Isle of Man or other crown dependency elsewhere. There's all manner of steps and agreements required to do this in such a way as to make it meaningful, and most of these require the whole British territory or crown dependency part which an independent Scotland's not likely to accept.

 

[Lemon Eddy]

"should let"??? Are you perhaps suggesting that the rest of the U.K. somehow "own" the pound and Scotland has and has had no part in it? We should somehow have to beg to be allowed to use something that is as much ours as anyone else's ?

Yes, that's pretty much the size of it. How else do you see it working? Obviously you want an independent Scotland to set it's own objectives for inflation control, currency availability, quantitative easing, etc. Now either that means the UK and Scotland set up their own mini finance zone, like a scaled down Euro - but with one of the parties having 9 times the financial clout of the other - or you set up your own currency. Now you can call the latter whatever you like - Pound, Dollar, Shekel, Groat, you name it - but as far as the rest of the world is concerned, it's a separate currency, and will be traded accordingly.

 

[danny la rouge]

No, they can't, at least not in any meaningful way. Scotland could declare they'll use the pound, but then they either have to:

a) buy all the sterling they need to distribute, or
b) create their own currency that's also called the pound, but actually isn't connected in any meaningful way, and so is valued completely independently of Sterling so might as well be called groats.
c) Establish a currency union setup similar to the Isle of Man or other crown dependency elsewhere. There's all manner of steps and agreements required to do this in such a way as to make it meaningful, and most of these require the whole British territory or crown dependency part which an independent Scotland's not likely to accept.

We-e-ell. Dollarisation, that is simply allowing your favoured currency (in the case Sterling) to circulate as a means of exchange, can and does happen. Of course it isn't normally the way a European democracy goes about things. It could happen in Scotland's case, but it won't. But Gem is quite right, anyone could do it, and there's nothing stopping a post indy Scottish government doing it if it wanted. (Other than the damage it'd do to its reputation etc).

Your point b) is a possibility. Scotland could have its own currency, pegged to Sterling. Pegged currencies are fairly common, but if market speculators think the rate is wrong, the pegged currency would be vulnerable, as Sterling itself was when it was part of the ERM (which was a pegging mechanism). But many currencies have been pegged to Sterling, especially former colonies. (Indeed, during colonial times, the Sterling zone was maintained this way to facilitate trade within the Empire). You set up a currency board and maintain Sterling reserves equivalent to the domestic currency that is circulating (1:1). That's how the Isle of Man, Gibraltar and the Channel Islands do it now. But that isn't a currency union, for currency union you need a single central bank and a single currency. That is what Salmond and Swinney propose, rather than a pegged currency.

 

[geminisnake]

Hong Kong doesn't seem to be worried about it. I have more faith in that FM that the one in London.

In a week that has seen Britain discuss the very future of the pound sterling and the possible break-up of the United Kingdom, Hong Kong's money changers have provided an unwitting boost to the Scottish independence movement by offering a separate - and more favourable - rate for Scottish pound notes.

http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/...ependence-gets-boost-hong-kongs-money-markets

 

[Lemon Eddy]

Erm, Gemini, did you read your own article?

""It's legal tender," he said. "We have had transactions in the past, but … it's actually only been once in a blue moon, but we will continue to provide the service. The rate is based on whatever the English pound is at that time.""
In short, someone forgot to update the scottish rate when the BoE sterling rate got updated.

 

[Lemon Eddy]

We-e-ell. Dollarisation, that is simply allowing your favoured currency (in the case Sterling) to circulate as a means of exchange, can and does happen. Of course it isn't normally the way a European democracy goes about things. It could happen in Scotland's case, but it won't. But Gem is quite right, anyone could do it, and there's nothing stopping a post indy Scottish government doing it if it wanted. (Other than the damage it'd do to its reputation etc).

"We're an independent nation who just happen to have tied our monetary policy completely to the Bank of England?"
That's one hell of a form of independence, wouldn't you say?

 

[danny la rouge]

"We're an independent nation who just happen to have tied our monetary policy completely to the Bank of England?"
That's one hell of a form of independence, wouldn't you say?

Well, there's no such thing as complete economic independence. Not for any country. And plenty of countries are involved in monetary union: the Euro zone countries, for example, which has a European Central Bank. Of course that brings its own problems, as the Euro zone is finding out. But I'm sure France and Germany don't see themselves as less than independent countries. Indeed any future UK government might opt to join the Euro. No party currently suggests doing so, but this is a policy option that has in the past enjoyed some support, and might do again in the future.

One of the things that people need to untangle is the difference between independence and SNP policy. All independent countries have governments which bring policies. The Rest-of-the-UK will also have this, should Scotland become independent.

I personally think an independent Scotland should have its own currency, and that it should be pegged to Sterling initially. (Incidentally, most of those business people who support independence want Scotland to join the Euro. Should that ever happen, Scotland would need its own currency first, as part of the process. Furthermore, the EU might well want Scotland to have its own currency as a membership condition, perhaps pegged to the Euro, as the Danish Krone is). However, whatever the SNP's policy on currency might be does not restrict an independent Scotland forever to that policy, just as the Major government did not doom the UK forever to be part of the ERM.

 

[kebabking]

... However, whatever the SNP's policy on currency might be does not restrict an independent Scotland forever to that policy, just as the Major government did not doom the UK forever to be part of the ERM.

while that is true, and nothing is forever - it is possible that whatever happens with regards to a future currency (whether Sterling, Sterling 2.0, the Groat or the Euro or even the Euro-lite), the interim period could be less than plain sailing.

my problem is that the SNP seem determined to gloss over every possible potential pothole of divorce and paint independence as an endless stream of motherhood and apple pie with no downsides and where other countries would subvert their own interests in order to make Scotland richer. if they were to talk about some of the potential pitfalls and how they would seek to mitigate them, then i might be a bit more likely to take more seriously what they say about the potential gains - but at the moment its all positive, and only a fool believes that everything is always positive.

 

[danny la rouge]

while that is true, and nothing is forever - it is possible that whatever happens with regards to a future currency (whether Sterling, Sterling 2.0, the Groat or the Euro or even the Euro-lite), the interim period could be less than plain sailing.

Absolutely. And I think the SNP's strategy (for strategy it is, rather than principle) in preferring monetary union with the Rest-of-the-UK is to do with reassurance, rather than actual economic necessity. This reassurance takes two forms: first, it says to voters, "see, nothing much will change as far as the money in your pocket is concerned"; and secondly, it says to business, "there won't be a dash from a Scots Pound to Sterling immediately following independence, because there won't be a Scots Pound, only Sterling". (Incidentally, I think there are good reasons that possible dash wouldn't have happened anyway, and I suspect the SNP also realise that. But for them it's not about reality, but appearance - they don't want to be having to make the arguments for why it wouldn't happen).

 

[ChocolateTeapot]

Absolutely. And I think the SNP's strategy (for strategy it is, rather than principle) in preferring monetary union with the Rest-of-the-UK is to do with reassurance, rather than actual economic necessity. This reassurance takes two forms: first, it says to voters, "see, nothing much will change as far as the money in your pocket is concerned"; and secondly, it says to business, "there won't be a dash from a Scots Pound to Sterling immediately following independence, because there won't be a Scots Pound, only Sterling". (Incidentally, I think there are good reasons that possible dash wouldn't have happened anyway, and I suspect the SNP also realise that. But for them it's not about reality, but appearance - they don't want to be having to make the arguments for why it wouldn't happen).

I would agree with that to an extent, but nowhere near as much as the "No" camp are doing all they can to create doubts - many of them unfounded, many of them overblown and many simply trivial or made up. You can read through the "500 questions" to see that! can you ever imagine a country contemplating independence from a larger state and peaple saying to themselves "Wait, this independence idea seemed Ok to begin with , but have we REALLY thought through our aviation passenger tax proposals thoroughly???".

We have had in recent times Vince Cable trying to explain to us that having oil reserves was actually a BAD thing, ffs! Not too long ago, it was Helen Liddell telling us that there would be no Coronation Street in an independent Scotland. More recently we have been told that becoming independent would threaten our membership of the EU by the very same people who are scrambling for UKIP votes.

For me it's not all about what bad things might happen if we say yes, it is the certainty of what WILL happen if we say no - and it sure as hell ain't appealing.

 

[danny la rouge]

You can read through the "500 questions" to see that!

What will Scotland’s international dialling code be?

A. Who gives a fuck?

 

[Teaboy]

Is this for real? Have the No campaign really been using dialling codes and access to Corrie as reasons why people should be cautious about independence?

That's just desperate.

 

[danny la rouge]

Is this for real? Have the No campaign really been using dialling codes and access to Corrie as reasons why people should be cautious about independence?

That's just desperate.

The Corrie one was a while back. But the dialling code one is current. Great, isn't it?

 

[gosub]

While 500 questions to make 500 days is gimmicky bollcks, think that was a nice trap. Clearly no one is going to base their decision on the change of a phone number, BUT that's a lot of headed paper and signage to blindly dismiss not to mention roaming and international call rates

 

[danny la rouge]

that's a lot of headed paper and signage to blindly dismiss not to mention roaming and international call rates

It's worth remembering, at this time of the anniversary of his death, that James Connelly never ceased to fret about Ireland's dialling code post independence. Indeed could that be why he chose the GPO to make his stand?

 

[danny la rouge]

I have conducted a survey of all the headed notepaper and signage I have seen with the UK's dialling code on it. I detail it below:

Headed notepaper with the UK dialling code on it: 0

Signage with the UK dialling code on it: 0

(Footnote: while the current author can imagine that notepaper with the UK dialling code on it might be used in some circumstances, the utility of a sign with that information on it seems limited. Perhaps the country in which the sign is placed might be prepared to foot much of the cost).

 

[geminisnake]

Afaik it's 044 danny. Not that I ever remember needing it. Shows up on mobiles I think.

 

[danny la rouge]

Afaik it's 044 danny. Not that I ever remember needing it. Shows up on mobiles I think.

It's +44. If you're in the States, for example, you dial 011 (to signal you're dialling out of the US), then you dial the code of the country you're dialling. In the case of the UK, that's 44. So you dial 01144.

I know how it works, I'm just saying I've never seen headed notepaper with it on. (Which is what gosub was talking about). You know the sort of thing: the company's address at the top, with the office number below. I've seen that plenty of times, but never with the +44. (I'm not saying those don't exist, but perhaps in more rarefied circles than I move in).

Nor have I seen any signs with the UK's international dialling code on them. (gosub also mentions signs). I wonder what kind of signs those would be, who they would be for, and where they would be placed? There wouldn't be much point in having signs in many UK towns and cities detailing the UK's dialling code.

I have seen lists of international dialling codes in my filofax, but those pages are replaced every year. Should Scotland need a new dialling code, then presumably the new pages will contain the information. Either way, it won't be uppermost in my mind when I cast my vote.

If my not giving a fuck is "blindly dismissing" anything, then so be it.

 

[teuchter]

I have conducted a survey of all the headed notepaper and signage I have seen with the UK's dialling code on it. I detail it below:

Headed notepaper with the UK dialling code on it: 0

How many samples of headed note paper is your survey based upon?

 

[danny la rouge]

How many samples of headed note paper is your survey based upon?

All those I remember seeing. Which may be thousands.*



*Individual experience; may not be typical.

 

[teuchter]

How many of these thousands did you see after the invention of the telephone though?

 

[Sasaferrato]

Thankfully common sense is still prevailing. A lady at work was expressing her strong support for independence. When I asked her where she would work afterwards, she started to say 'here', then stopped, looking a bit bewildered. This area has 3000+ Civil Service jobs that would disappear with independence.

 

[Sasaferrato]

"should let"??? Are you perhaps suggesting that the rest of the U.K. somehow "own" the pound and Scotland has and has had no part in it? We should somehow have to beg to be allowed to use something that is as much ours as anyone else's ?

No idea what your second point is even supposed to be - is that an argument against the Euro, for the pound, both or neither?

Perhaps you might want to ask the Kiwis, Aussies or even the Irish how and why they managed post independence using the pound? Stability through a transitional period perhaps? Or maybe you can suggest Brendan was saying to Tiarnan in 1930 - "Now that we're independent, how about we get ourselves a new currency?" to which he replied "No, we'll stick with effective shadowing and a 1:1 exchange rate - just so we can blame the English".

Dearie me...

We have absolutely no more right to use the pound than France has. Sterling is backed by the B of E, not the B of S. (Apart from the fact that British money saved the B of S's arse).

 

[Quartz]

I thought I saw somewhere on the BBC website yesterday (vague or what? ) a solicitation for the views of English living in Scotland on the independence question. I can, of course, no longer find it. Does anyone have it?