Will you vote for independence?

[geminisnake]

Thankfully common sense is still prevailing. A lady at work was expressing her strong support for independence. When I asked her where she would work afterwards, she started to say 'here', then stopped, looking a bit bewildered. This area has 3000+ Civil Service jobs that would disappear with independence.

Why would they disappear? It's not as if the service won't still be needed. There will also be a transition period. You are such a doom monger

 

[danny la rouge]

We have absolutely no more right to use the pound than France has.

Why do rights come into it?

 

[danny la rouge]

Thankfully common sense is still prevailing. A lady at work was expressing her strong support for independence. When I asked her where she would work afterwards, she started to say 'here', then stopped, looking a bit bewildered. This area has 3000+ Civil Service jobs that would disappear with independence.

An independent Scotland wouldn't need any civil servants to run the public services that are currently reserved?

The majority of identifiable public spending in Scotland is from reserved services, (and the majority of that is state pension). These will need to be run by the new independent Scotland.

Take tax. You might say that Centre 1 in East Kilbride handles PAYE for people outside Scotland, too. And so it does. But then my NI payments are dealt with in Newcastle. My self assessment (as a self employed person) are also dealt with in Newcastle. My Tax Credits are dealt with in Washington, Tyne and Wear.

So there are not just losses, but also gains. And that is without mentioning DVLA in Swansea, and other UK-wide public services currently administered from outside of Scotland.

There will need to be a period of disentanglement, so that both Scotland and the-Rest-of-the-UK can rearrange their administration. But there’s no reason at all to suppose that will mean a net job loss for Scotland. (That’s not to say it would be a simple matter to disentangle; I’m reminded of the Beiderbecke Affair, when a council official says, “The department is being reorganised, but this office is as yet unreorganised”).

 

[danny la rouge]

I thought I saw somewhere on the BBC website yesterday (vague or what? ) a solicitation for the views of English living in Scotland on the independence question. I can, of course, no longer find it. Does anyone have it?

I remember seeing that. I think it was for participation in a TV or radio discussion show. Perhaps it has now been filmed/recorded.

 

[gosub]

Does Scotland do any civil service bits for the whole country - like Wales does Dvla?

 

[Sasaferrato]

An independent Scotland wouldn't need any civil servants to run the public services that are currently reserved?

The majority of identifiable public spending in Scotland is from reserved services, (and the majority of that is state pension). These will need to be run by the new independent Scotland.

Take tax. You might say that Centre 1 in East Kilbride handles PAYE for people outside Scotland, too. And so it does. But then my NI payments are dealt with in Newcastle. My self assessment (as a self employed person) are also dealt with in Newcastle. My Tax Credits are dealt with in Washington, Tyne and Wear.

So there are not just losses, but also gains. And that is without mentioning DVLA in Swansea, and other UK-wide public services currently administered from outside of Scotland.

There will need to be a period of disentanglement, so that both Scotland and the-Rest-of-the-UK can rearrange their administration. But there’s no reason at all to suppose that will mean a net job loss for Scotland. (That’s not to say it would be a simple matter to disentangle; I’m reminded of the Beiderbecke Affair, when a council official says, “The department is being reorganised, but this office is as yet unreorganised”).

Of course, but with no guarantee that current job holders would be employed.

After all, there will be lots of MSPs relatives, Councilor's relatives etc that need employment. You know, the way Councils etc used to be staffed in the old days.

 

[danny la rouge]

After all, there will be lots of MSPs relatives, Councilor's relatives etc that need employment. You know, the way Councils etc used to be staffed in the old days.

And I thought I was a cynic.

 

[danny la rouge]

Does Scotland do any civil service bits for the whole country - like Wales does Dvla?

Not as far as I know.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Does Scotland do any civil service bits for the whole country - like Wales does Dvla?

Not that I can think of.

The current rabble in Holyrood have had some tax powers for a while, well, they did until they lapsed, due to the SNP being unable to afford a paltry (in the great scheme of things) £53m that they had to pay to the Treasury to maintain the system.

 

[Sasaferrato]

And I thought I was a cynic.

I'm old enough to remember the 'good old days' when being a relative of a Councilor was a job guarantee. This has diminished due to Council reorganisation, and legislation regarding the advertisement of jobs etc. Such legislation, being national, would disappear.

However, I am near retirement, and will be retired if Scotland becomes a pimple on the arse of Europe, rather than part of a major country. The swinging tax rises that will occur just to pay the welfare bill will be eye watering, and the idiots who voted for independence will be paying them. Hell mend them.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Why would they disappear? It's not as if the service won't still be needed. There will also be a transition period. You are such a doom monger

Are you suggesting that they will pay 3000 people to do nothing in the period between the two systems? The minute the decision is taken that Scotland will independent, the P45s for every British government employee in Scotland will be printed. Taxes, Tax Credits, Depts of Agriculture and Forestry and DWP, to name just a few. The job losses will run to tens of thousands. There are 1500 people employed in Tax Credits between Bathgate and Dundee alone.

 

[Sasaferrato]

We-e-ell. Dollarisation, that is simply allowing your favoured currency (in the case Sterling) to circulate as a means of exchange, can and does happen. Of course it isn't normally the way a European democracy goes about things. It could happen in Scotland's case, but it won't. But Gem is quite right, anyone could do it, and there's nothing stopping a post indy Scottish government doing it if it wanted. (Other than the damage it'd do to its reputation etc).

Your point b) is a possibility. Scotland could have its own currency, pegged to Sterling. Pegged currencies are fairly common, but if market speculators think the rate is wrong, the pegged currency would be vulnerable, as Sterling itself was when it was part of the ERM (which was a pegging mechanism). But many currencies have been pegged to Sterling, especially former colonies. (Indeed, during colonial times, the Sterling zone was maintained this way to facilitate trade within the Empire). You set up a currency board and maintain Sterling reserves equivalent to the domestic currency that is circulating (1:1). That's how the Isle of Man, Gibraltar and the Channel Islands do it now. But that isn't a currency union, for currency union you need a single central bank and a single currency. That is what Salmond and Swinney propose, rather than a pegged currency.

And will be told to fuck off.

Another lie from 'Il Duce' of Bute House is automatic EU membership, (and how typically arrogant of the SNP to suggest taking Scotland in without consulting the people), the President of the EU says membership will not be automatic, the slimy little cunt Salmond says it will. I know who I believe, and that is the man with the 'say' not the fat fantasist.

 

[geminisnake]

Of course, but with no guarantee that current job holders would be employed.

Aye, coz they'll hire a bunch of rellies that haven't got a fecking clue what they are doing

I don't believe for a second that 3000 p45s will be issued instantly, if at all. You are believing tory BS and sorry I'm not going to continue with this. The ONLY people I know in favour of no are ex squaddies. No further comment.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Aye, coz they'll hire a bunch of rellies that haven't got a fecking clue what they are doing

I don't believe for a second that 3000 p45s will be issued instantly, if at all. You are believing tory BS and sorry I'm not going to continue with this. The ONLY people I know in favour of no are ex squaddies. No further comment.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with any party, it is simply commonsense. An England, Wales and Northern Ireland government will not be be employing people in a foreign country, which is what Scotland would be. There is also the matter of the Schengen Agreement, do you have a definitive answer on that?

I have E-mailed my MSP for detailed costings on simply the taxation service. There are none.

As to simply mirroring the UK system, they cannot, the majority of it is copyrighted, so no one would have much of a clue starting with a brand new system, which renders any argument that current incumbents would still have a job, meaningless.

 

[DexterTCN]

...As to simply mirroring the UK system, they cannot, the majority of it is copyrighted, so no one would have much of a clue starting with a brand new system, which renders any argument that current incumbents would still have a job, meaningless.

I think we're also copyright holders in that, aren't we.

And dumping 1500 tax credits jobs? Just give 1500 people 2 weeks training and get them on the phone then? Doubtful, there'd be fucking uproar if that amount of people stopped working on the system propping up half the workers in the UK.

 

[danny la rouge]

And will be told to fuck off.

Well, it’s academic, really, since the No vote will win. But let’s just assume a win for Yes. If that were to happen, the Westminster government would definitely want as few changes to the domestic market as possible, and the best way for them to ensure that companies can continue to trade without disruption is to make sure that exchange rate fluctuations don’t interrupt the domestic market. So, in theory the proposal would be part of the negotiations, but actually Westminster would want Scotland to stay in the Sterling zone, as any neo-Classical economist would tell you. So, no, they won't be told to fuck off. However much that may please you.

Another lie from 'Il Duce' of Bute House is automatic EU membership, (and how typically arrogant of the SNP to suggest taking Scotland in without consulting the people), the President of the EU says membership will not be automatic, the slimy little cunt Salmond says it will. I know who I believe, and that is the man with the 'say' not the fat fantasist.

Well, I would prefer an independent Scotland to be outside the EU, but Westminster wouldn’t. And neither, actually, would the EU. The EU President had to say that the rest-of-the-UK would be the continuing member, and Scotland reapply, since there are other EU members with possible secessionary regions. However, the EU is not about to expel 5 million EU citizens, nor (more to the point) will it want Scotland’s businesses to be outside the EU (with border controls along the English border and tariffs on Scottish products, such as whisky and oil). So Scotland’s reapplication will be accelerated, and any formal period of non-EU membership kept to an absolute minimum. Not for Scotland’s benefit, but in the interests of trade.

 

[danny la rouge]

As to simply mirroring the UK system, they cannot, the majority of it is copyrighted, so no one would have much of a clue starting with a brand new system, which renders any argument that current incumbents would still have a job, meaningless.

Your union ought to be taking this seriously, and asking questions about TUPE etc. You never know, the Yes vote might win.

(Copyrighted material can be bought, you know. I imagine that would form part of the negotiations).

 

[geminisnake]

Not really an independence issue but seems a bit daft to start a new thread for it

Nigel came to Edinburgh

http://wingsoverscotland.com/scottish-hospitality/#more-34423

 

[Sasaferrato]

Your union ought to be taking this seriously, and asking questions about TUPE etc. You never know, the Yes vote might win.

(Copyrighted material can be bought, you know. I imagine that would form part of the negotiations).

If the yes vote wins, it will be a matter of regret for Scotland for ever.

However, the referendum is a while away, The SNP may actually produce some figures before it. It is deeply worrying that they haven't a clue at the moment, either that, or they do, but are concealing the information.

TUPE wouldn't apply, it is national legislation. You cannot base anything on British law.

I think a lot of the 'Yes' advocates haven't a clue what they are supporting. Hard figures may well change their minds.

 

[danny la rouge]

TUPE wouldn't apply, it is national legislation. You cannot base anything on British law.

What utter bollocks. The only reason TUPE might not apply would be found in TUPE, Reg.3. And that would depend on whether the setting up of a Scottish tax administration would be a relevant transfer: "An administrative reorganisation of public administration authorities or the transfer of administrative functions between public administrative authorities is not a relevant transfer". Nothing to do with "British law" not applying. And if it isn't a relevant transfer under TUPE, then continuity of service is protected under the Employment Rights Act 1996.

And if your union isn't asking those questions, and setting out its stall, then it isn't doing its job.

 

[danny la rouge]

You cannot base anything on British law.

You know what else won't apply the day after independence? The law of gravity. We'll have to have velcro pavements. And how will that be paid for? Eh? And what about guide dogs?

Scotland, Sas, is equivalent in size to Denmark or Finland. 8 full EU members are smaller than Scotland, some of them much smaller. Scotland has the capacity to be an independent country. There is no reason why Scotland should be uniquely incapable of the things you seem to think it incapable of. The question for you shouldn't be can Scotland be independent, but should it be independent? And by that I don't mean would it fail to look after itself, unlike other countries its size. I mean, what are the ethics? If Unionists can't approach it that way, then the No vote is going to be more tenuous than appearances suggest. I'd suggest that UK-solidarity is what motivates Unionism, not daft notions of Scotland's unique ineptitude. Playing on the latter will only look desperate and, to the reasonable person, incorrect. Telling people they are incapable of doing something often goads them into wanting to prove you wrong.

 

[Sasaferrato]

You know what else won't apply the day after independence? The law of gravity. We'll have to have velcro pavements. And how will that be paid for? Eh? And what about guide dogs?

Scotland, Sas, is equivalent in size to Denmark or Finland. 8 full EU members are smaller than Scotland, some of them much smaller. Scotland has the capacity to be an independent country. There is no reason why Scotland should be uniquely incapable of the things you seem to think it incapable of. The question for you shouldn't be can Scotland be independent, but should it be independent? And by that I don't mean would it fail to look after itself, unlike other countries its size. I mean, what are the ethics? If Unionists can't approach it that way, then the No vote is going to be more tenuous than appearances suggest. I'd suggest that UK-solidarity is what motivates Unionism, not daft notions of Scotland's unique ineptitude. Playing on the latter will only look desperate and, to the reasonable person, incorrect. Telling people they are incapable of doing something often goads them into wanting to prove you wrong.

Did you see the Brownshirts harassing Mr Farage yesterday?

 

[danny la rouge]

Did you see the Brownshirts harassing Mr Farage yesterday?

No.

 

[8ball]

Uninformed post follows - please be nice:

The poll results here are pretty clear, yet the general feeling is that the vote won't go that way.
Obviously U75 is not a representative sample but what are the reasons for the discrepancy?

 

[teuchter]

Uninformed post follows - please be nice:

The poll results here are pretty clear, yet the general feeling is that the vote won't go that way.
Obviously U75 is not a representative sample but what are the reasons for the discrepancy?

Read the last 2 or 3 pages of the thread

 

[8ball]

Read the last 2 or 3 pages of the thread

Could have been worse - could have been 20...

edit: Not that much wiser, though the Scots should definitely call their new currency groats.

 

[dylanredefined]

Does Scotland do any civil service bits for the whole country - like Wales does Dvla?

Army pay and admin is done in glasgow.

 

[danny la rouge]

Why is there a majority of probable Yes voters on Urban75? My theory is that it's because U75 disproportionately attracts people active on the left, and the active left in Scotland is pro independence on the whole: SSP, Solidarity, the Greens, Communist Party of Scotland, etc. all support independence. It's a tradition that goes back to John McLean and Jimmy Maxton.

8ball

 

[8ball]

Why is there a majority of probable Yes voters on Urban75? My theory is that it's because U75 disproportionately attracts people active on the left, and the active left in Scotland is pro independence on the whole: SSP, Solidarity, the Greens, Communist Party of Scotland, etc. all support independence. It's a tradition that goes back to John McLean and Jimmy Maxton.

I figured it would be a 'lefty' thing but thanks for confirmation. Whereas a dislike of Salmond seems to push it the other way in the general populace (not that I know that much about Salmond - seems more decent than average when on Question Time but I'm talking politicians here).

 

[danny la rouge]

Whereas a dislike of Salmond seems to push it the other way in the general populace

I don't think that's right, actually. It seems that Salmond and the SNP are more liked than their main policy. The majority of the electorate just doesn't like independence. But they vote the SNP into power.