Will you vote for independence?

[gosub]

That 'sentiment tracker' is complete embarrassment, so far detached from actual public opinion. I would not be surprised if it was basically manned with Labour Party employees.

When you look at the Y axis, I'm inclined to agree. Trend though, close to how I'd call it, but then I'm a blow in from down south

 

[weltweit]

That 'sentiment tracker' is complete embarrassment, so far detached from actual public opinion. I would not be surprised if it was basically manned with Labour Party employees.

I am sure it accurately tracked the feedback of those who were on that page.
Who those people were is a different matter.

 

[gosub]

Yep, should have said plurality, my mistake.

I do, in general this has been a pretty good thread I'd rather not have a load of conspiracy nonsense around.

The majority of the press is clearly anti-independence, I just think that on the particular issue of the debate the commentary I've seen (and I don't live in the UK let alone Scotland so I accept I'm only going to be seeing a subsection) is taking it's lead from the public as much as anything else.

On the ground, Yes supporters quite evangelical and lots of Yes signs around. No, less so, actually saw bloke wearing a Better together badge in the pub the other day, so unusual as to be conspicuous.

 

[DairyQueen]

The majority of the press is clearly anti-independence, I just think that on the particular issue of the debate the commentary I've seen (and I don't live in the UK let alone Scotland so I accept I'm only going to be seeing a subsection) is taking it's lead from the public as much as anything else.

I suspect you *hope* that it is taking the lead from public opinion. There is certainly no evidence from that poll that everyone thought that was the key question unanswered. All the major parties have made currency a major plank of the Better Together campaign, it is difficult to tell now if the public think so too.

The press should be there to inform, not to campaign. Certainly not to orchestrate with political leaders to try and influence public opinion, which I suspect has been going on.

 

[redsquirrel]

I suspect you *hope* that it is taking the lead from public opinion

Yes that's it - I'm a secret Better Together operative working out of Oz.

 

[gosub]

Got a company of mates who are finding a pain in the arse as company directors in terms of contracts, but mostly hear it being blythly dismissed by Yes supporters. I suppose there are a lot of people in financial services, but it does seem more like one of those issues people should think about rather than what actually goes on in peoples minds-we don't end up with bald Prime Ministers for example.

 

[DairyQueen]

Yes that's it - I'm a secret Better Together operative working out of Oz.

Not really what I meant. That you think its taking the lead from public opinion because that is what a free press does. I am saying that you 'hope' because suggesting our press behaves in that way is optimistic.

 

[DairyQueen]

Got a company of mates who are finding a pain in the arse as company directors in terms of contracts, but mostly hear it being blythly dismissed by Yes supporters. I suppose there are a lot of people in financial services, but it does seem more like one of those issues people should think about rather than what actually goes on in peoples minds

Not really sure what this means. These sorts of transitions (if that is what you mean) would be most likely smooth, since the rUK are extremely right-wing.

 

[redsquirrel]

Not really what I meant. That you think its taking the lead from public opinion because that is what a free press does. I am saying that you 'hope' because suggesting our press behaves in that way is optimistic.

OK my apologies then.

I don't believe that the press is unbiased or unpolitical, as I've said the majority of it is clearly unionist. I just don't see the stuff on the debate as particularly bad - I think there's been example of far more partisan stuff earlier in the thread. I also think it's a mistake to make put the public a solely passive role in the relationship, not saying you're doing this, just a general point.

 

[DairyQueen]

Its not just the debate, but a series of partisan nonsense. The reporting of the debate fits a pattern.

The Independent, for example...

[George Galloway]’s speech is being hailed as a landmark oration

Being hailed? By who? Landmark? Really?

Question Time's 'passionate highlander' is the William Wallace of the Better Together campaign

These are silly, but there is loads of similar examples going back months if not years.

The Socialist Worker provides better analysis than this guff.

 

[DownwardDog]

Just out of interest - why is it snp policy to have currency union with uk.?Seems to be the question that always makes the snp look weak. Would it not have been better to bite bullet on that one a long time ago and make case for own currency?

New country with a new currency = very expensive borrowing. And the Democratic People's Republic of Scotland is going to be doing a lot of borrowing.

 

[DotCommunist]

christ but you're a red baiting prick sometimes. And you are wrong.

 

[Frankie Jack]

So many younger people at work, 20-30s, caught up in Bitter scare stories. Working through them gradually. Changed four minds in the last week or so. Hard going though.

 

[redsquirrel]

So many younger people at work, 20-30s, caught up in Bitter scare stories. Working through them gradually. Changed four minds in the last week or so. Hard going though.

Got any ideas about why this age group seems to be less pro-independence than the next one up? Less experience of the Tories in government maybe?

 

[DownwardDog]

christ but you're a red baiting prick sometimes. And you are wrong.

I thought one of the reasons for independence was to reject neo-liberal austerity and a crude conflation of national economics with a household budget. What's that if it's not borrowing money?

 

[DotCommunist]

I thought

no you never

 

[DotCommunist]

Also governments borrow all the time, on a huge scale and they do it at rates far beyond the rates offered to us mere mortals. Precisely because they have a year on year tax base guarantee.

 

[DownwardDog]

Also governments borrow all the time, on a huge scale and they do it at rates far beyond the rates offered to us mere mortals. Precisely because they have a year on year tax base guarantee.

So is the newly independent Scotland going to be borrowing or not? If yes, then they (obviously) don't want to do it with groat denominated bonds hence the ill concealed necessity of continuing to suckle at the withered teat of the Old Lady of Threadneedle Street.

 

[DotCommunist]

tbh the ins and outs of how indy capitalist scotland manages her fiscal affairs doesn't bother me over much- they are capitalists, they'll work something out. If theres one thing the capitalist system knows how to do its how keep milking my class. I'm basically in this one to watch scotland go indy while under the dubious aegis of a lib-tory coalition

 

[danny la rouge]

I thought one of the reasons for independence was to reject neo-liberal austerity and a crude conflation of national economics with a household budget. What's that if it's not borrowing money?

You have certainly fallen for the austerity ideology con if you think the choices for a government are austerity *or* borrowing money; austerity *involves* borrowing money.

However, there are plenty of threads where austerity ideology is discussed.

 

[DairyQueen]

I thought one of the reasons for independence was to reject neo-liberal austerity and a crude conflation of national economics with a household budget. What's that if it's not borrowing money?

Quantitative easing!!!!

So is the newly independent Scotland going to be borrowing or not? If yes, then they (obviously) don't want to do it with groat denominated bonds hence the ill concealed necessity of continuing to suckle at the withered teat of the Old Lady of Threadneedle Street.

The UK fiscal position is a disaster. Austerity has not reduced the debt or deficit.

 

[DairyQueen]

I don't think Salmond should bother with another debate, certainly not one with the BBC. It will be a total sham. The press will write exactly the same stories no matter what is said.

This is not democratic in the slightest.

 

[Teaboy]

I don't think Salmond should bother with another debate, certainly not one with the BBC. It will be a total sham. The press will write exactly the same stories no matter what is said.

This is not democratic in the slightest.

I agree, these debates are nonsense and the press will have decided who won it before it takes place, however hasn't it been Salmond pushing for them all along?

 

[danny la rouge]

I agree, these debates are nonsense and the press will have decided who won it before it takes place, however hasn't it been Salmond pushing for them all along?

With Cameron, but Cameron sent his second.

 

[DotCommunist]

With Cameron, but Cameron sent his second.

obviously I'm no cameron fan (I'd like to kick him into an active caldera) but that was a bit insulting, sending some stammering demon headmaster type prick to tell jock whats good for him. Like the tories don't even dignify the question with thier A Team. Gove would have been poisonous.

 

[Quartz]

What a lot of whiners you lot are. Your guy had a bad day at the office. Get over it.

 

[butchersapron]

What a lot of whiners you lot are. Your guy had a bad day at the office. Get over it.

A bad day would have seen a drop in support for YES or a rise for NO. When in fact, nothing happened. It was a boring 0-0 draw. Albeit one where YES was 1-0 up from the first leg.

 

[Teaboy]

With Cameron, but Cameron sent his second.

Yeah, well Salmond had been merrily telling everyone that it was nothing to do with Westminster and they should mind their own, until of course he saw the chance to get Cameron into the stocks where he knew the tomatoes would be flying.

 

[gosub]

Assuming there's a NO vote, and assuming no party has a workable majority after the next Westminster election. What happens if SNP have more MP's than Lib Dems?

 

[muscovyduck]

What a lot of whiners you lot are. Your guy had a bad day at the office. Get over it.

Our guy? What happened to your impartiality?
Nah seriously though never had time for this TV debate nonsense, it's a fucking circus. No idea why Salmond wanted one and why Cameron didn't.