A pity Salmond didn't explain it like that. But that doesn't wash anyway: there'll be nearly 2 years between the vote and actual independence, plenty of time to sort out a new currency.
Will you vote for independence?
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A pity Salmond didn't explain it like that. But that doesn't wash anyway: there'll be nearly 2 years between the vote and actual independence, plenty of time to sort out a new currency.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...scottish-independence-debate-video-highlights
Love this verbally beat the shit out of Tory... nice to see
Love this verbally beat the shit out of Tory... nice to see
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I agree. But I think the judgement was about perception rather than realities. As it happens, I think it was a strategic mistake to go for the "don't scare the horses" line. It begs the question, "if things are not going to change much, why even bother". Far better, I think, to call for a fresh start. More inspirational.
But that's not the course they chose.
geminisnake
a complex mass of conflicting ideas
Someone asked about the audience, just noticed this on FB. Strangely enough I'm not even surprised anymore. I'm just worried about how low 'they' WILL go 
Post by LYNN SIMM
I was selected as a yes voter to attend tonight's debate. I turned up, eagerly awaiting to get stuck in and ask some serious questions like about the Clair oilfield, public sector pension act and a lot of other important issues. When I got to the front and asked to clear security, that i was told that ipsos Mori had not processed the paper work and I would not get in! I phoned the rep from ipsos and was told that was bullshit. All the yes people that they had put forward had not been selected and had been replaced by no voters. That's around 30-40 people in that audience that have been swapped in favour of no. You may ask the significance of this. Well I have reliably been informed that a poll will be carried out after the debate to see what the audience thought an to ask them the referendum question!".
Not surprised. Makes you wonder though. Westminster seems to be pulling every string it has, to ensure it keeps Scotland. Just been told, as I write this, that the Head of Ipsos MORI - the person in charge of The Debate's audience selection - is friends with David Cameron. All audience members may have been required to sign the Official Secrets Act.
A fair debate? Nah, but it's left us irate."
Post by LYNN SIMM
I was selected as a yes voter to attend tonight's debate. I turned up, eagerly awaiting to get stuck in and ask some serious questions like about the Clair oilfield, public sector pension act and a lot of other important issues. When I got to the front and asked to clear security, that i was told that ipsos Mori had not processed the paper work and I would not get in! I phoned the rep from ipsos and was told that was bullshit. All the yes people that they had put forward had not been selected and had been replaced by no voters. That's around 30-40 people in that audience that have been swapped in favour of no. You may ask the significance of this. Well I have reliably been informed that a poll will be carried out after the debate to see what the audience thought an to ask them the referendum question!".
Not surprised. Makes you wonder though. Westminster seems to be pulling every string it has, to ensure it keeps Scotland. Just been told, as I write this, that the Head of Ipsos MORI - the person in charge of The Debate's audience selection - is friends with David Cameron. All audience members may have been required to sign the Official Secrets Act.
A fair debate? Nah, but it's left us irate."
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
What a load of ropey old nonsense.Someone asked about the audience, just noticed this on FB. Strangely enough I'm not even surprised anymore. I'm just worried about how low 'they' WILL go
Post by LYNN SIMM
I was selected as a yes voter to attend tonight's debate. I turned up, eagerly awaiting to get stuck in and ask some serious questions like about the Clair oilfield, public sector pension act and a lot of other important issues. When I got to the front and asked to clear security, that i was told that ipsos Mori had not processed the paper work and I would not get in! I phoned the rep from ipsos and was told that was bullshit. All the yes people that they had put forward had not been selected and had been replaced by no voters. That's around 30-40 people in that audience that have been swapped in favour of no. You may ask the significance of this. Well I have reliably been informed that a poll will be carried out after the debate to see what the audience thought an to ask them the referendum question!".
Not surprised. Makes you wonder though. Westminster seems to be pulling every string it has, to ensure it keeps Scotland. Just been told, as I write this, that the Head of Ipsos MORI - the person in charge of The Debate's audience selection - is friends with David Cameron. All audience members may have been required to sign the Official Secrets Act.
A fair debate? Nah, but it's left us irate."
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
one of the audience members looked and sounded exactly like a mates dad. Kept expecting him to break the fourth wall and ask 'aye, huv ye not finished wi ma copy a Dune yet Jason?'
No they haven't been overly kind. Darling did not perform well, but he didn't do badly; Salmond needed to perform much better.
Cheers. I expected Darling was going to get battered, so maybe more was expected of Salmond?
Then again, after the hilarity of "I agree with Nick" I'm not sure much can be read into these live debates.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I haven't seen it yet, but my guess is that the Unionist press and viewers will have been favourably predisposed towards Darling. Unless he completely messed up (for example, he often seems on the brink of losing control of his temper; so if he actually lost it on live TV), he was going to be supported by the Union supporting press.
The problem with these things is that they are about personalities. The referendum vote isn't about electing a person, and shouldn't be about personality.
(Incidentally, although I don't support Salmond or the SNP, I don't find him personally repellent, as many Unionists profess to).
DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
The press are spinning this like crazy. Even the Guardian are reporting this really badly. It is obvious that the debate itself has had little impact on the core yes and no vote. The polls suggest, so far, undecideds were pretty evenly split (possibly more inclined to support yes). At best, it could be spun "Salmond did not get killer blow" or some such crap, we don't know that yet, but to suggest Darling won this. My god, that is poor journalism and statistical illiteracy at its worst. I suspect it is state propaganda (maybe I am wrong). I don't think I will ever buy a Fleet Street paper again.
The press are trying to make it appear Darling won. I hope Scots are smarter than to believe the press.
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DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
you mean the unionist dominated press? they gave darling way more than he deserved in terms of leeway. And it is a boxing match, its a verbals not a genuine debate. And salmond won.
gosub
~#
I note the link to EU position on an Independent Scotland has disappeared from the Holyrood website. (still hosted). I'm glad however that Salmond is on the same page, that Scotland will have to reapply. I note too, that he has no plans to adopt the EUro.
eskdave
failed lover
I am a friend of DC -and signed the OSA for that reasonSomeone asked about the audience, just noticed this on FB. Strangely enough I'm not even surprised anymore. I'm just worried about how low 'they' WILL go
Post by LYNN SIMM
I was selected as a yes voter to attend tonight's debate. I turned up, eagerly awaiting to get stuck in and ask some serious questions like about the Clair oilfield, public sector pension act and a lot of other important issues. When I got to the front and asked to clear security, that i was told that ipsos Mori had not processed the paper work and I would not get in! I phoned the rep from ipsos and was told that was bullshit. All the yes people that they had put forward had not been selected and had been replaced by no voters. That's around 30-40 people in that audience that have been swapped in favour of no. You may ask the significance of this. Well I have reliably been informed that a poll will be carried out after the debate to see what the audience thought an to ask them the referendum question!".
Not surprised. Makes you wonder though. Westminster seems to be pulling every string it has, to ensure it keeps Scotland. Just been told, as I write this, that the Head of Ipsos MORI - the person in charge of The Debate's audience selection - is friends with David Cameron. All audience members may have been required to sign the Official Secrets Act.
A fair debate? Nah, but it's left us irate."
eskdave
failed lover
it is STV -Dot,not Russia Today.
Yet that is what independent opinion polls say. I happen to disagree with them - I think it was a no score draw - but there it is.
DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
One snap poll showed little movement in voting intention (after YES had reached its highest level in months by that polling company, by the way).
http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2014/08/who-won-the-leaders-debate-icms-instant-poll/
Apart from that, we have to wait and see movement. The press are trying to influence public opinion. The BBC debate will be a sham, face it.
I don't think Salmond should bother. Darling could wear a blouse insist that he is Lady Britannia incarnate, Fleet Street would call it inspiring and a chunk of no voters would still say he won the debate.
http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2014/08/who-won-the-leaders-debate-icms-instant-poll/
Apart from that, we have to wait and see movement. The press are trying to influence public opinion. The BBC debate will be a sham, face it.
I don't think Salmond should bother. Darling could wear a blouse insist that he is Lady Britannia incarnate, Fleet Street would call it inspiring and a chunk of no voters would still say he won the debate.
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redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
It's not just the press though is it. The polling shows that most of the public thought that Darling "won", now as BA posted upthread that's probably as much/more to due with the views they already have than anything else but some of the stuff posted in the last few pages both about the press and the polling companies has been nonsense.
DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
The 'polling' (one snap poll) does not show that though. Furthermore, all this shit about the currency is completely fabricated. Nowhere in the poll was the currency mentioned. In fact, many said Salmond was the better personality. The currency is a major Better Together campaign slogan, and that is why the media is pursuing it. I am truly sorry if you don't understand this.
You're doing your bit for Better Together, be proud of yourself. Go on to the Telegraph comment page if you really must continue with this pish, they'll swallow it.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Oh for god sakes this is the type of shite I'm talking about, pointing out that there's been some unsubstantiated FB/twitter twaddle posted over the last few pages makes me a Better Together supporter does it.
Ok there was only one poll but are you denying that the majority of respondents thought that Darling "won" the debate?
DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
The one poll showed a plurality thought Darling had 'won' the debate, fine.The actual figures were 47%-37%-15%.
I have no idea what you mean about twitter twaddle; the woman that claimed to be censored? Who cares? I am saying that the press coverage of the debate has been diabolical. The whole currency thing is basically a Better Together campaign slogan, that is why it is being pursued. This is not twitter twaddle. This is the major dailies and intelligentsia of Britain basically writing Better Together press releases. This is not even just the tabloids, but the major, serious newspapers. If you think that the reporting has been proportionate, balanced and evidence-based, then please explain it to me.
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gosub
~#
looking at it, Guardian ran the polling linked to by Dairyqueen and a sentiment tracker
:
while the tracker would give a better grasp of the underlying thinking, I don't think its of the same polling sample. Watched the telly myself so can't be sure, but would imagine would be underlying thinking of those hooked up to the guardian, which I'm guessing would be those not watching it through telly, ie south of the border. I know one of the people who watched it with me had his head in a laptop the whole time but that was twitter. Certainly don't think the people who consider it useful to tell the Guardian what they were thinking at any given minute are that representative of the average Scot.
A shameless unScientific mashup
:
while the tracker would give a better grasp of the underlying thinking, I don't think its of the same polling sample. Watched the telly myself so can't be sure, but would imagine would be underlying thinking of those hooked up to the guardian, which I'm guessing would be those not watching it through telly, ie south of the border. I know one of the people who watched it with me had his head in a laptop the whole time but that was twitter. Certainly don't think the people who consider it useful to tell the Guardian what they were thinking at any given minute are that representative of the average Scot.
A shameless unScientific mashup
DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
That 'sentiment tracker' is complete embarrassment, so far detached from actual public opinion. I would not be surprised if it was basically manned with Labour Party employees.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Yep, should have said plurality, my mistake.
I do, in general this has been a pretty good thread I'd rather not have a load of conspiracy nonsense around.
The majority of the press is clearly anti-independence, I just think that on the particular issue of the debate the commentary I've seen (and I don't live in the UK let alone Scotland so I accept I'm only going to be seeing a subsection) is taking it's lead from the public as much as anything else.
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