Why the lib-dems are shit

[stethoscope]

You seek to conflate the issue with the cuts with the referundum, in doing so you sell yourself short in both regards.

No, your party are selling you and its supporters short.

 

[trevhagl]

No, your party are selling you and its supporters short.

i think he must be the only member not to realise it. Lets face it if your party teamed up with another party who are supposed to be THE OPPOSITE then just rolled over and accepted all their policies, you would have to be pretty naive to still have faith.

 

[butchersapron]

Liar

 

[butchersapron]

There's an excellent justification of the above lies on the lib-dem lies site btw. The gist of it they had to chnage their policy to the exact opposite because of...the cuts It's the cuts fault.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Excuse me?

Most definitely not. Your many apologia are inexcusable.

The Liberal Democrats have for years consistently argued for a fairer voting system.

Yes, and for much of that time the fairer system that they sought was STV. Now that they have tasted power, their convictions have suddenly become negotiable. This isn't speculation on my part, it's fact.

Neither Labour or the Conservatives were prepared to offer a vote on STV.

So your people settled for a shit sandwich because they couldn't wring a cheese sandwich out of Labour or the Conservatives. Great. It's not as if AV is a compromise between FPTP and STV, it's FPTP by another name, but with a few minor adjustments to make it more idiot-friendly.
Don't take my word for this, look at any of the many studies on comparative electoral systems.

I don't remember Labour offering a PR system to try and form a coalition...

As we don't know the full scope of negotiations between Labour and the Lib-Dems, we're unlikely to be able to test the keenness of your memory.

....and the Tories where never going to agree to it.

And you know this...how?
What the Tories would have agreed to would depend on how badly they needed the Lib-Dems. Given just how much they do need the Lib-Dems to retain power, I'd say that your analysis is flawed, and that the more likely scenario is that your leader can't negotiate his way out of a paper bag.

Politics is about the art of the possible...

If I want trite political banalities I'll read the Daily Telegraph, thanks.

what the Lib Dem's have done is secure a chance for a system that is an improvement on the current one. It's not the best improvement, but it's an improvement.

It may (although even this is arguable) be a "better" system in terms of maintaining the current tripartite status quo. What it isn't is a system that secures a better deal for the individual voter. We're still left with the same party structures, the same neo-liberal consensus. Cui Bono? The current political apparatus, obviously.

If you vote against AV then you will be voting against political reform...

1832 (The Reform Act) was political reform, 1928 (Universal suffrage for over-21s) was political reform. This is not. It's a sop.

you are aligning yourself with the status quo and the Murdoch press for the sake of your intellectual purity.

You are using cheap notions such as "if you're not with us you must be with THEM" in order to traduce people who don't agree with you. I generally see tactics such as this used by people who realise their own position isn't tenable.

 

[ViolentPanda]

This is about all the so called progressives arguing for the status quo because at this moment they disagree with those who propose the reform.

No, it really isn't.
Check the various old threads on voting system reform. There have been plenty over the last decade.
Once you do that (if you can be arsed, and don't mind your assumptions being challenged) you'll note that AV isn't well-regarded by the political grassroots or by unaligned people.
So, this is not an attack on the Lib-Dems qua an attack on the Lib-Dems, it's an attack on the Lib-Dems for proposing and supporting a system that while it may find favour with the parliamentary Labour and Lib-Dem parties, doesn't find favour further down the food-chain.

 

[ViolentPanda]

transitional demands lol

And we all know how "transitional" they usually are.

 

[ViolentPanda]

this from someone who said they'd vote BNP over liberal democrats.

No, it's from someone who said something knowing that any board user who'd read her posts for more than a couple of weeks would understand that she was being ironic.

 

[frogwoman]

If the BNP say 1+1=2 it doesn't mean they are wrong in that point, but you wouldn't want to vote for them becuase they are a bunch of racist fuckers.

In the same vain of the Lib Dems say AV is better then FPtT it doens't mean they are wrong. Maybe you hate the Lib Dems, but they are still right that AV is better than FPTP.

I don't hate the Lib Dems. I think "pity" is a more accurate summary of my feelings.

 

[butchersapron]

If the lib-dems say 1+1=2 it doesn't mean they are wrong in that point, but you wouldn't want to vote for them because they are a bunch of neo-liberal fuckers.

Think about it moonie. I like the way you try to turn a subjective political judgment into a an objective correct by definition type model as well.

 

[butchersapron]

I don't hate the Lib Dems. I think "pity" is a more accurate summary of my feelings.

I do. I hate them.

 

[frogwoman]

Think about it moonie. I like the way you try to turn a subjective political judgment into a an objective correct by definition type model as well.

yep, unbelievable innit?

 

[frogwoman]

I do. I hate them.

ah, but hate implies a degree of respect - that they're actually people worthy of my hatred, whereas they're too pathetic to be worthy of anything tbh

 

[butchersapron]

My hate doesn't!

 

[frogwoman]

i can't hate people for joining a cult - it'd be like looking at the guy who i saw today in town haranguing shoppers about how the big bang didn't exist and thiking "my god i hate him"
the leaders of the cult on the other hand ...

 

[frogwoman]

My hate doesn't!

I know and fair play to you mate, nothing wrong with that

 

[little_legs]

expect more defending of the cuts by the lib dems this week. from today's FT:

..the enthusiasm of Mr Clegg and other senior Lib Dems for the fiscal squeeze amazed many Tories.

Their intimate collaboration in this political enterprise has brought them closer together. Yesterday Mr Osborne and Mr Alexander convened party spin doctors to work out joint lines of defence against Labour attacks.

 

[Neutron]

Here's your chance to post up why the lib-dems are shit - personalities and policies.

Starters - Nick Clegg supports private education and health-care, has used the latter to jump NHS ques and has said he will use the former to transmit his own massive privilege to his sons.

Because Nick Clegg is a slimy right-wing freak.

 

[butchersapron]

Help help I'm hurting labour.

Quite consciously to.

 

[grogwilton]

I was talking to my brother yesterday, its the first time I've seen him in a while since he moved to London. He was always the most 'right wing' in my family. He did economics at uni, supported the Iraq War. Was always the one who supported privatisation of services, argued globalisation benefitted poorer countries. He even supported the court rulings against Bassa in the BA dispute.

He voted Lib Dem in the election, and is going on his first demonstration ever- that one organised by the NUS and UCU against the change in fees. He hates Nick Clegg now. The first reason he gave was the blatant lie and turn around on pretty much EVERY policy they put forward before the election. Secondly, he finds the cuts in university education incredibly idiotic, even from a purely economic point of view, let alone a moral one. The 80% cuts in government expenditure will result most probably in universities closing. This is at a time when the HE sector is a massive mony spinner for the country. The amount of international students who pour money into this country from asia is huge. He said given that Britain doesn't produce much anymore (partly Cleggs fault now to because of Sheffield forgemasters, and in his own constituency of Sheffield) the decision to hammer one of the biggest growth sectors was idiocy.

My Dad was also a big Lib Dem fan, likes the AV stuff etc. Now he's pissed off with them too, citing the quango cull as actually costing the public sector more then it will save, and being purely tory ideological.

Both my brother and Dad are a very far from my own and Urbans' politics. They are core Lib Dem constituency- university educated, middle class, white collar workers, who are broadly socially and poltically liberal in their outlook, and generally not too fussed about cuts or prrivatisation here or there, or bothered about unions. My Dad even offered to put up Lib Dem posters in his window in the election. My brother now says he'll never vote Lib Dem again. Haven't spoken to my Dad who he'd vote for so don't know.

AV will not keep people happy Moon. Unless there is a remarkable shift in your party's political direction soon, you and all your MPs, councillors and members are walking dead, and Cable and Clegg will be made Lords by the Tories when they lose their seats, whilst the rest of you are left to swing.

 

[butchersapron]

Eugene Levine, at the trial that had him killed, called communists 'dead men on furlough' - at least they knew it. The legions of lib-dems about to get wiped out do not appear to realise it. There's a sort of '96/pre 97 election feel where people are just waiting. It's coming.

 

[trevhagl]

I was talking to my brother yesterday, its the first time I've seen him in a while since he moved to London. He was always the most 'right wing' in my family. He did economics at uni, supported the Iraq War. Was always the one who supported privatisation of services, argued globalisation benefitted poorer countries. He even supported the court rulings against Bassa in the BA dispute.

He voted Lib Dem in the election, and is going on his first demonstration ever- that one organised by the NUS and UCU against the change in fees. He hates Nick Clegg now. The first reason he gave was the blatant lie and turn around on pretty much EVERY policy they put forward before the election. Secondly, he finds the cuts in university education incredibly idiotic, even from a purely economic point of view, let alone a moral one. The 80% cuts in government expenditure will result most probably in universities closing. This is at a time when the HE sector is a massive mony spinner for the country. The amount of international students who pour money into this country from asia is huge. He said given that Britain doesn't produce much anymore (partly Cleggs fault now to because of Sheffield forgemasters, and in his own constituency of Sheffield) the decision to hammer one of the biggest growth sectors was idiocy.

My Dad was also a big Lib Dem fan, likes the AV stuff etc. Now he's pissed off with them too, citing the quango cull as actually costing the public sector more then it will save, and being purely tory ideological.

Both my brother and Dad are a very far from my own and Urbans' politics. They are core Lib Dem constituency- university educated, middle class, white collar workers, who are broadly socially and poltically liberal in their outlook, and generally not too fussed about cuts or prrivatisation here or there, or bothered about unions. My Dad even offered to put up Lib Dem posters in his window in the election. My brother now says he'll never vote Lib Dem again. Haven't spoken to my Dad who he'd vote for so don't know.

AV will not keep people happy Moon. Unless there is a remarkable shift in your party's political direction soon, you and all your MPs, councillors and members are walking dead, and Cable and Clegg will be made Lords by the Tories when they lose their seats, whilst the rest of you are left to swing.

very well said

 

[butchersapron]

Has there just been another lib-dem U-turn on nuclear power?

 

[elbows]

Has there just been another lib-dem U-turn on nuclear power?

You mean this?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-11560551

Plans for a controversial £30bn Severn barrage tidal energy project stretching from Weston-super-Mare in Somerset to Cardiff are expected to be scrapped.

Secretary of State for Energy Chris Huhne is expected to make the announcement in Parliament on Monday.

Reports suggest the scheme is to be axed as it is not "financially viable" and that instead he will give the go-ahead to new nuclear power stations.

 

[butchersapron]

Yep, it was buried in there - lib-dem Huhne giving the nod to new nuclear power stations despite the manifesto saying that the lib-dems will

Reject a new generation of nuclear power stations; based on the evidence nuclear is a far more expensive way of reducing carbon emissions than promoting energy conservation and renewable energy

There's very little left is there?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yep, it was buried in there - lib-dem Huhne giving the nod to new nuclear power stations despite the manifesto saying that the lib-dems will



There's very little left is there?

If the Lib-Dems were selling their convictions and manifesto commitments for something of value, you could understand although not condone it.
That they are selling themselves for the tiniest sniff of power, in a way that benefits no-one except the parliamentary Lib-Dem party is truly shameful.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

If the Lib-Dems were selling their convictions and manifesto commitments for something of value, you could understand although not condone it.
That they are selling themselves for the tiniest sniff of power, in a way that benefits no-one except the parliamentary Lib-Dem party is truly shameful.

In fact it's only for the very short term benefit of a tiny handful of the parliamentary party.

 

[King Biscuit Time]

I'd like to stick some money on Clegg detecting to the Tories inside 5 years. Are any bookies offering odds on this?

 

[butchersapron]

Any facebook types want to do a I voted Lib Dem - and I wish I hadn’t group?

 

[Hocus Eye.]

If the Lib-Dems were selling their convictions and manifesto commitments for something of value, you could understand although not condone it.
That they are selling themselves for the tiniest sniff of power, in a way that benefits no-one except the parliamentary Lib-Dem party is truly shameful.

If the LibDems ever had any convictions you would be able to read about them in the newspaper reports of the court proceedings. They think that they are in a coalition but really they are hostages. Also these hostages are showing signs of Stockholm Syndrome.