Why the Green Party is shit

[butchersapron]

Not Farage - hence this sabotage.

 

[brogdale]

I'd imagine they'd all be pleased to let the debates quietly disappear.

Not Farage...nor I suspect Miliband, as expectations for him would be so low that he'd probably prosper.

 

[Scumbaggio]

The greens will just end up acting in the same manner as the lib dems if they ever get a significant number of seats.

Principles will be enthusiastically defenestrated.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

He said he did not see how "some minor parties like the Liberal Democrats and UKIP" could take part in the leaders' debates, but not the Greens.

made me lol anyway

 

[brogdale]

Cameron is arguing for the inclusion of the leader of a party that has not saved a single by-election deposit in this parliament.

 

[DotCommunist]

Cameron is arguing for the inclusion of the leader of a party that has not saved a single by-election deposit in this parliament.

eastliegh?

 

[butchersapron]

They didn't stand.

 

[brogdale]

eastliegh?

Not standing a candidate at all is pushing the generally accepted notion of saving their deposit!

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Not standing a candidate at all is pushing the generally accepted notion of saving their deposit!

It is strictly speaking true though

 

[brogdale]

It is strictly speaking true though

Strictly speaking, no...unless we're talking composting toilets here?

 

[killer b]

It is strictly speaking true though

Eh? in that case, i've saved my deposit in every singe election since 1977.

 

[ferrelhadley]

They're pissing away a fantastic opportunity, by letting UKIP corner the protest vote, due to being a bunch of irrelevant, interfering, lentil-gobbling, middle-class do-gooders in the minds of most of the people experiencing the harsh reality of austerity policies.

This is on the level of "you smell of wee".
Urban 75 is pretty monotonous in telling everyone else why they are wrong about everything (ever) and is utterly certain it is full of unbridled political geniuses, but I do not see the slightest hint they are doing anything that registers outside its self congratulatory bubble.

At least a large portion of normal people know the lentil gobblers exist.

 

[brogdale]

Eh? in that case, i've saved my deposit in every singe election since 1977.

Primate democracy?

 

[butchersapron]

This is on the level of "you smell of wee".
Urban 75 is pretty monotonous in telling everyone else why they are wrong about everything (ever) and is utterly certain it is full of unbridled political geniuses, but I do not see the slightest hint they are doing anything that registers outside its self congratulatory bubble.

At least a large portion of normal people know the lentil gobblers exist.

 

[ferrelhadley]

View attachment 66061

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Eh? in that case, i've saved my deposit in every singe election since 1977.

Yes, and I have since '76

 

[Bernie Gunther]

This is on the level of "you smell of wee".
Urban 75 is pretty monotonous in telling everyone else why they are wrong about everything (ever) and is utterly certain it is full of unbridled political geniuses, but I do not see the slightest hint they are doing anything that registers outside its self congratulatory bubble.

At least a large portion of normal people know the lentil gobblers exist.

Indeed they do, so much so that the Greens are neck and neck with the Lib Dems for fourth place in recent polls. See e.g. http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9129

But ...

... what we’re seeing is an anti-government vote that had previously been going to the Labour party by default is now finding many homes and showing itself in rise of the Green party, the SNP and UKIP. The public’s lack of confidence in Ed Miliband and Labour isn’t manifesting itself in them running back to the Conservative party for safety… it’s manifesting itself in them going off to find more attractive oppositions to vote for.

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/date/2014/12

UKIP however are doing far better at connecting with voters and are the third place party by a substantial margin. Why do you think that is?

If the Greens aren't failing in the ways that I describe in my last few posts above (not just the one you quoted), what alternative interpretations would you prefer that we consider?

 

[co-op]

UKIP however are doing far better at connecting with voters and are the third place party by a substantial margin.

Why do you think that is?

Because there's plenty of evidence that most people will commit more readily to preserve rights which they feel are being lost or are under attack, than they will to win future, as-yet-non-existent, theoretical benefits?

The Labour and Conservative parties are doing "far better at connecting with voters" than UKIP - perhaps we should be embracing their ability to enmesh themselves in the real lived lives of ordinary people and derive meaningful policies from that connection?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Because there's plenty of evidence that most people will commit more readily to preserve rights which they feel are being lost or are under attack, than they will to win future, as-yet-non-existent, theoretical benefits?

The Labour and Conservative parties are doing "far better at connecting with voters" than UKIP - perhaps we should be embracing their ability to enmesh themselves in the real lived lives of ordinary people and derive meaningful policies from that connection?

They aren't though are they?

Both major parties and the LibDems are shedding support. As far as I can tell, the issues that are causing this are closely tied to their rigid adherence to neoliberalism.

For example: austerity, immigration, precarity and a general loss of trust that they'll represent anyone's interest except for: banks, big business and neoliberal institutions like the EU.

Which to me opens up the question, why are UKIP doing so much better than the Greens at picking those straying voters up?

(Obviously also, there's another set of questions about goals and ability to deliver, which is what my earlier posts were taking issues with ... but let's do this one first)

 

[newbie]

ukip have easily identifiable villains to blame- the eu and immigration, the greens point at amorphous consumerism which means us, all of us?

 

[DotCommunist]

you killed the polar bears

 

[newbie]

that's a grossly unreasonable and offensive thing to suggest. I'm going to vote for the ones who stop our swans being eaten.

 

[tbtommyb]

Which to me opens up the question, why are UKIP doing so much better than the Greens at picking those straying voters up?

Because if you're a disillusioned Tory voter and someone suggests voting UKIP no-one says otherwise. But if you're a disillusioned left voter and someone says 'vote Green' there's always someone to come along and say 'crowd of cunts, vote for xyz marginal/TUSC, they'll never win but at least you're true to the cause'.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Because if you're a disillusioned Tory voter and someone suggests voting UKIP no-one says otherwise. But if you're a disillusioned left voter and someone says 'vote Green' there's always someone to come along and say 'crowd of cunts, vote for xyz marginal/TUSC, they'll never win but at least you're true to the cause'.

That might be true to some degree on Urban, but do you really think it's true out there in the real world?

I'm not at all convinced that it is.

I don't think many of the people in question care that much about being 'true to the cause' but I think they may care quite a bit about: austerity, precarity and other things that make their lives directly worse.

 

[tbtommyb]

dp

 

[DotCommunist]

its not even that true on urban- loads of people on here have indicated green as the only left of labour vote. Crossover with the same who voted lib dem has yet to be closely analysed

 

[tbtommyb]

That might be true to some degree on Urban, but do you really think it's true out there in the real world?

I'm not at all convinced that it is. I don't think many of the people in question care that much about being 'true to the cause' but do care about: austerity, precarity etc.

so I think UKIP's success is down to a large part to their grassroots, word of mouth popularity. there's never any equivalent on the left.

the greens aren't doing so well because they haven't had that word of mouth growth since the 1990s.

but to your wider point yeah i agree that for many people on the suffering edge of austerity the Greens aren't the natural party to turn to.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

its not even that true on urban- loads of people on here have indicated green as the only left of labour vote. Crossover with the same who voted lib dem has yet to be closely analysed

I've definitely seen some figures showing the highest proportion of GPEW support is in the under 25 range where the highest proportion of the UKIP support is in the over 45 or so range. Or something like that.

 

[andysays]

its not even that true on urban- loads of people on here have indicated green as the only left of labour vote. Crossover with the same who voted lib dem has yet to be closely analysed

I'm not sure that anyone here has said they're the only left of labour vote (though someone is welcome to correct me), rather that they are the left of labour party* most likely to get a significant vote, which is slightly different.

As an example, in the recent council elections Labour won by miles in my ward and a few of the others in my area (no surprise there) but the Greens came second, well ahead of TUSC (and Tories, Lib-Dems and UKIP, can't remember the order all of them were in).

Not suggesting this example demonstrates anything conclusive, but I'd be surprised if anyone can point out many places where eg TUSC are the closest left challengers to labour ahead of the greens.

*Obviously this depends on accepting that they are left of labour, and I guess some people would dispute that, but that's a seperate question

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Might be easier to talk about specific analyses and policies rather than 'left', although it makes things rather more long winded in order to avoid circular arguments about what 'left' is supposed to mean.

For example, if I want an electorally significant party to vote for who stand clearly for re-nationalisation of public services then the Greens are my only option.

If I also want a clear stand against capital controlling the means of production, which I regard as key to both economic justice and ecological sustainability, I have no electorally significant options at all.

More awkwardly, if I want a clear promise to leave the neoliberal institution of the EU, I have no electorally significant option that I'm willing to vote for even as a protest.