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Why the Green Party is shit

Well one person referred to you as a Nazi and was pulled up on it (and for the record I agree that what they said was out of order) but from the very first time you posted on this thread you've dodged the issues. And as for other people not standing up for their class, well quite frankly that's pretty offensive, there's loads of people on here that do stuff that is a damn site more productive than running for election in a seat you'll never win for a party that employed scab labour.
I've been an activist all my life. I don't need to answer to you! I supported the miners when the labour leadership wouldn't and labour always let working people down so now I'm here standing up for working people! Brighton have done plenty of positive hings including introducing a living wage and equalising pay for women while labour voted with the Tories. The Labour Party have been evicting ordinary families in favour of developers and joining in with the social cleansing of London and the only socialists I can find are in the Green Party. I didn't have to even acknowledge this thread but I did! And I don't have to answer to people like you! So fuck off
 
So you'll just keep on dodging the perfectly valid issues people have raised on this thread. You haven't acknowledged this thread, that's precisely the problem. You've posted on it but not once have you addressed the issues.

And I'm no asking you to answer to "people like me" (whatever that means) I'm asking you to address the criticisms raised by people in this thread, that fact that you are either unwilling or unable to do that is pretty crap. Hell if you are the best the Green Party can muster than they really are shit.
 
Good luck with running for public office whilst posting abusive messages to people on the internet then
 
I'm going to learn how to deal with it in the debates with the other candidates and in front of my constituents and not here on Urban75.

TBF, you should do the latter in order to home your ability to do the former. To not do so is a missed opportunity, especially given that here you'll possibly get asked questions that you wouldn't be prepared for in public debate.
 
Going door to door will be much much harder than anything you get here. :confused:

Absolutely. Some of the complex stuff you get asked when canvassing is stuff a lot of PPCs don't bone up on, and can lose you a household's votes in an instant if you fumble or mumble.
 
I've been an activist all my life. I don't need to answer to you! I supported the miners when the labour leadership wouldn't and labour always let working people down so now I'm here standing up for working people! Brighton have done plenty of positive hings including introducing a living wage and equalising pay for women while labour voted with the Tories. The Labour Party have been evicting ordinary families in favour of developers and joining in with the social cleansing of London and the only socialists I can find are in the Green Party. I didn't have to even acknowledge this thread but I did! And I don't have to answer to people like you! So fuck off

The above is why you need to hone your answers. All you've done is trot out a party line, and attempt to imply that you're doing people a favour by deigning to reply to them at all.
And sure, the Greens did provide an alternative for socialists over the last 30 years. Unfortunately (for the party and the country) they also have given shelter to the nastier end of the ideological spectrum, or are you going to claim that the Green Party hasn't been tainted by crypto-fascism in some local areas? I hope not, as the reality of some local parties having members of the bonkers brigade in positions of responsibility has been a deterrent to the party extending its' membership over and over again.
 
I'm not arrogant and I'm not a wanna be MP! I'm standing to see if we can increase the Green vote from less than 1% to 5% and to help boost our standing in the GLA elections a year later!

What is it with people calling other people things they can't possibly even know because they have never met them!

And I'm not talking to any group of people who insist I am a Nazi.

Edit: just remembered the ignore button. Problem sorted!

I wasn't seriously calling you a Nazi (and as has been pointed out I was out of order apparently, although IMO this thread demonstrates there are no limits to the ill treatment of Greens but it seems I'm in a minority of one on that score).

I was responding to the fact that you claimed you had been called a Nazi (see below):

So you think I should answer a post comparing me to a nazi?

You say you're not a wannabe but you sound like one:

anyone who has a reaonable question to ask can email me at stella.gardiner@greenparty.org.uk

When I'm elected I'll come back and deal with this thread. In the meant time I have a life and a day job and a campaign to run!

So you've got no time to deal with the questions raised on this thread now but when you're elected to Parliament you'll have loads of time to respond in detail to criticisms of your party and tell us why we should vote for you?

I guess I could give you the benefit of the doubt and ask you about Brighton. What do you think about Kitkat and Green take on austerity?

I don't believe for a second you're genuine in anything you say but go ahead, prove me wrong. As you say, I can't prove you're a horrible liar but I like betting and I'd stake a hefty sum on you being a horrible liar.
 
I've been an activist all my life. I don't need to answer to you!

Have you had that arrogant attitude all your life too? You must be a nightmare to work with. I've been flat out rude to you but redsquirrel has engaged; why can't you respond to them?
 
Sorry mate, but :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

We don't know if your facepalming is because you don't think the Greens should have a class based approach or because you think it's completely obvious that they do. Make it clear if you want to answer andysays constructively.

I don't live in your constituency, but I do have what I think is a sensible, valid and important criticism of the Green Party - why do they appear to have nothing approaching a class analysis in their approach?

Because they're a bunch of woolly liberals. Apart from the anti semitic crypto fascists, of course.
 
We don't know if your facepalming is because you don't think the Greens should have a class based approach or because you think it's completely obvious that they do. Make it clear if you want to answer andysays constructively.

It might not be clear to you, but it will be clear to anyone who isn't mired in class obsessed politics.
 
It might not be clear to you, but it will be clear to anyone who isn't mired in class obsessed politics.

Ahhhh, it becomes clear now - you agree that the Greens don't have a class based approach and you think that's good.

E2A: Aren't you glad I'm here to help you communicate?
 
Ahhhh, it becomes clear now - you agree that the Greens don't have a class based approach and you think that's good.

E2A: Aren't you glad I'm here to help you communicate?

I don't think it is totally clear from what he said, although I'm guessing you've got it right based on the implications of the 'class obsessed' bit.

Is Andrew Hertford a Green then? Is that a typical Green view on class?
 
We don't know if your facepalming is because you don't think the Greens should have a class based approach or because you think it's completely obvious that they do. Make it clear if you want to answer andysays constructively...

Yeah, that was my reaction. There are various possible explanations for the triple facepalm, but without some clarity that reaction is worthless.

...Because they're a bunch of woolly liberals. Apart from the anti semitic crypto fascists, of course.

I'd tend to agree with the first bit (and I'd take issue with the apparent assumption that significant numbers of members/supporters of the GP are anti semitic crypto fascists, BTW, none of the members/supporters I know come into that category, unless they're very good at hiding it).

I would still be interested in hearing a coherent response from AuntiStella or Andrew Hertford or anyone else who might speak in some way for the Green Party about the class issue, because as I already said, I'm someone who is sympathetic to green issues but who sees this as the major failing of the Green Party as it exists.
 
What's happened to Derek Wall and the Green Left? He/they did have something of a class analysis (well, class and 'indigenous populations'), much of it seemingly derived from a Fourth Internationalist perspective.
 
What's happened to Derek Wall and the Green Left? He/they did have something of a class analysis (well, class and 'indigenous populations'), much of it seemingly derived from a Fourth Internationalist perspective.

Still going

http://www.thegreenleft.co.uk/

Also I don't want to defend the Green Party - but we have no evidence the slime Meltingpot was a member or supporter only his words, which we know were worthless.

It's probably more useful to point to the likes of Tony Gosling in Bristol who was a candidate for the Greens
 
Still going

http://www.thegreenleft.co.uk/

Also I don't want to defend the Green Party - but we have no evidence the slime Meltingpot was a member or supporter only his words, which we know were worthless.

It's probably more useful to point to the likes of Tony Gosling in Bristol who was a candidate for the Greens
And is now being given space on RT -the channel you can trust. I wonder if this is part of the protocols of the elders of zions plans and he was just trying to give us fair warning by circulating them?
 
I would still be interested in hearing a coherent response from AuntiStella or Andrew Hertford or anyone else who might speak in some way for the Green Party about the class issue, because as I already said, I'm someone who is sympathetic to green issues but who sees this as the major failing of the Green Party as it exists.

OK, I will give a go. But I can't claim to speak for the Party and I don't know the ins and outs of the Green Left group.

Basically, there is an assumption behind a lot of Green policies, not always spelled out, that we should/need to move to a decentralised, mutual society. So a lot of the opposition to new nuclear is opposition to large, centralised power generation rather than nuclear per se.

This can also be seen in Green policy on Workers' rights and Employment. I've cut out a few relevant ones, apologies for the length:

WR360 The large income disparities which characterise our society are a sign of significant social and economic injustice. The Green Party believes that working people should be paid a decent, living wage and, like every other citizen, be entitled to a sufficient level of economic security to meet their needs. Every worker, like every citizen, should have the right to fair income security, whether working, unemployed, in retirement or in sickness. Everyone should be paid the same for work of equal value, regardless of age.

WR361 To these ends we propose (i) a Citizens Income payable to every citizen as a basic right, funded by an ecological and genuinely progressive taxation system, and (ii) a significant role for unions and workers to ensure decent wage levels. In the absence of a fully developed Citizens Income scheme, we support (a) the idea of minimum wage legislation, set at a level to combat social and economic injustice and the poverty and economic insecurity associated with low pay, and (b) the payment of decent benefits to low-and un-waged people.

WR600 A Green economy must be a more mutual economy, in which industries and enterprises which are run by and for those who depend on them and are affected by them play a significant role in the economy. We believe that the international co-operative principles provide the benchmark for such businesses. This means that the Green Party must enable both the creation of new mutuals and the greater involvement of stakeholders other than investors in existing businesses.

WR604 By giving workers the freedom to organise collectively, a Green government will enable trade unionists to prioritise demands for workers to have a greater say in what they produce and how they produce it. Sharing the responsibility for running a business will initially be achieved through a natural extension of collective bargaining, improved union facilities; training of workers representatives and access to company information.

WR609 We would broaden the existing legal framework away from its narrow focus on those people who "own" the majority of shares. We would promote the interests of the other shareholders and investors, with the ultimate aim of having capital provided by either those who work in the organisation, or by the immediate community on which it depends. The main stakeholders will become the workers, other businesses, shareholders, the local community and the environment.

WR610 We will grant employees the legal right to buy out their companies and turn them into workers co-operatives. Buy outs would be funded by a Green National Investment Bank and contingent on the co-ops following green and ethical policies. These co-operatives would localise economic decision-making and give employees incentives for greater productivity.

I'm going to characterise this as a society with citizen's income and a move towards mutuals.

I think two questions arise from this: 1) is this 'enough' of a class analysis for you? Do you agree that what they propose is sufficient? 2) Will they actually try and deliver any of it, and succeed?

For me, I would be happy with a citizen's income and co-operatives as the default business model. Citizen's income at a sufficient level would end wage slavery and worker/community ownership would end the extraction of surplus value (as I understand all those terms, at least). What do you think? How do you think it compares to e.g. Left Unity?

On 2), I think this is where we run into problems. I think that the policies listed above have a class analysis behind them, but this is not made explicit by the terms used. A downside of this is that a seemingly small shift in the policy can completely obviate any class analysis.

For example, proposing a living wage as an intermediate step to a citizen's income. Would a living wage be better than what we have now? Certainly. A living wage might be roughly around the same amount as a citizen's income, but would it necessarily make it any easier to implement a citizen's income? I don't think so. Is it a meaningful change in how society is organised, as citizen's income is? No.

How will this shift to mutual ownership happen in the face of certain opposition from current owners? It's not clear.

Partly you have the issue faced by anyone with fairly radical policies, of how to implement them in the current environment. If you're up for social revolution and don't like parliamentary democracy then you'll probably see the Greens as pushing their way into a blind alley. Though to be fair they do spell out the need to effect change at all levels and recognise the limits of the parliamentary system.

Specific to the Greens, I think there is a danger that as they become more mainstream they lose the more radical things and end up just as a 'bit more left than labour' party. I think it is undeniable that they are primarily a party of middle-class luvvies and as discussed above it would be interesting to see if the surge has moved them more to the soft left or the radical left.

All that said, I find it encouraging that a party with such policies is pushing into the mainstream and gaining support (especially among the young, who are often characterised as thatcherite these days). I also like Left Unity's policies, but I simply don't see them really going anywhere. Will the Greens simply be co-opted and made into an ineffectual 'we're nicer than labour' party? I hope not but I can see why many think that will happen.
 
OK, I will give a go. But I can't claim to speak for the Party and I don't know the ins and outs of the Green Left group...

...I think two questions arise from this: 1) is this 'enough' of a class analysis for you? Do you agree that what they propose is sufficient? 2) Will they actually try and deliver any of it, and succeed?...

...Will the Greens simply be co-opted and made into an ineffectual 'we're nicer than labour' party? I hope not but I can see why many think that will happen.

Thanks for that response - it's a shame that Urban's one (as far as I'm aware) Green candidate for elected office couldn't take the trouble to make a similar response.

It's the beginnings of a class analysis but it's not, IMO, sufficient or explicit enough. Maybe there's more explicit stuff underlying it (I wouldn't necessarily expect the policy statement to contain the underlying principles) but from everything I've seen/heard I don't think so.

And because it isn't sufficient/explicit, I share the doubts that you have about them trying and succeeding to impliment even the limited measures proposed (far less any involvement in going beyond them to really transform capitalism into anything truely socialist or truely sustainable), as the example of Brighton council seems to show.
 
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