Why Labour are Scum

[butchersapron]

Then you're doing it wrong. You're doing it too slow and missing the only good thing he might offer. Getting elected pm and changing things post 2020 ffs.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well I actually joined to help vote Corbyn in to form a government that would actually be able to increase the budgets of local councils so that they aren't forced into administer cuts. One that makes the imposition of cuts irrelevant - you know, because the budgets are increased?

Funny, I thought *that* was the whole point of electing Corbyn rather than doing something that means you have no actual authority to change things any more.

you must be pleased you have the opportunity to vote him in again then

 

[two sheds]

It isn't worse than pointless at all. If your only power is deciding what to cut first, then why not go all out? Call their bluff and set an illegal budget, have members ready to occupy council buildings and the like, take thousands of people with you to court, etc etc. Obviously this all takes mass, angry support to pull it off, but it works.

Or just close another library with a sad look on your face.

I'd prefer to look at how you could for example increase the budgets. I'm in Cornwall, so I'd like to see second homes that lie unoccupied during all but 4 weeks of the year given a council tax of x3 times.

Increase council tax for the top band (if possible, and not for people who live in big houses but don't have money). The greens in Brighton I thought held referenda to increase the council tax but got flak for that?

Try to take over some of the profit that private individuals make at the expense of the rest of us. Rather than selling land off to private developers on the cheap get planning permission for it first and have the council build houses on it so that we all benefit from the profit to be made. Compulsorily purchase land (giving fair rate for it) and then get planning permission.

Things like that - if they're legal - and if they're not legal then hopefully get Corbyn elected so they *are* legal.

Great, yes occupy council buildings if you can get mass support but if you don't get mass support and you get to be seen as "irresponsible loony lefties" then it's not going to be productive and we're going to have the tories in again. If they cut the electricity supply off to the council buildings everyone can work in the dark?

Otherwise we could try the approach of sending people round in taxis with P45s for all the council workers - see if that helps this time.

I want to see the same things you do. I want conditions to be improved in the country. I want to be convinced that we can improve things, though. With councils we're playing under the rules the tories set up - you rarely win if you're playing to their rules, you need to change the rules so that they are fairer to everyone, not just the few at the top.

 

[two sheds]

Then you're doing it wrong. You're doing it too slow and missing the only good thing he might offer. Getting elected pm and changing things post 2020 ffs.

No, I agree resist them in the meantime but how do you do it effectively ffs?

What I said to killer b just is what I'd like to see (I don't know council law though, so don't know whether that is possible either).

 

[two sheds]

you must be pleased you have the opportunity to vote him in again then

I don't even have the opportunity to vote him into Labour leadership yet they're telling me I'm not on the electoral register.

 

[butchersapron]

No, I agree resist them in the meantime but how do you do it effectively ffs?

What I said to killer b just is what I'd like to see (I don't know council law though, so don't know whether that is possible either).

Not by saying to councilors go ahead and impose cuts, we understand. By telling them the opposite, By actually resisting. By not putting councilors legitimacy as your first concern. By surrounding them - not supporting them. If people don't do this then what is the point?

 

[DownwardDog]

Well I actually joined to help vote Corbyn in to form a government that would actually be able to increase the budgets of local councils so that they aren't forced into administer cuts. One that makes the imposition of cuts irrelevant - you know, because the budgets are increased?

That's not going to happen though because Corbyn's never going to be PM so the Momentumite hoardes would be more fruitfully employed if harnessed in direct action this weekend.

 

[killer b]

I'd prefer to look at how you could for example increase the budgets. I'm in Cornwall, so I'd like to see second homes that lie unoccupied during all but 4 weeks of the year given a council tax of x3 times.

Increase council tax for the top band (if possible, and not for people who live in big houses but don't have money). The greens in Brighton I thought held referenda to increase the council tax but got flak for that?

Try to take over some of the profit that private individuals make at the expense of the rest of us. Rather than selling land off to private developers on the cheap get planning permission for it first and have the council build houses on it so that we all benefit from the profit to be made. Compulsorily purchase land (giving fair rate for it) and then get planning permission.

Things like that - if they're legal - and if they're not legal then hopefully get Corbyn elected so they *are* legal.

Great, yes occupy council buildings if you can get mass support but if you don't get mass support and you get to be seen as "irresponsible loony lefties" then it's not going to be productive and we're going to have the tories in again. If they cut the electricity supply off to the council buildings everyone can work in the dark?

Otherwise we could try the approach of sending people round in taxis with P45s for all the council workers - see if that helps this time.

I want to see the same things you do. I want conditions to be improved in the country. I want to be convinced that we can improve things, though. With councils we're playing under the rules the tories set up - you rarely win if you're playing to their rules, you need to change the rules so that they are fairer to everyone, not just the few at the top.

But you don't have to play by their rules. History is littered with rules not being played by, and rules then being changed.

 

[killer b]

In fact, that's how rules always change, really.

 

[inva]

Intetesting to find put Corbyn's response to striking rail workers and anti-gentification campaigners IF HE GETS IN POWER.

P.S. Cheers Inva for the link.

The same as usual probably. In the words of Ken Livingstone:

Slightly over a year ago London Underground and the RMT came to an agreement that was overwhelmingly in the interests both of London Underground employees and all Londoners.

You say that you are trying to avoid disruption to millions of people, but, as I am informed, the RMT broke off negotiations and called these strikes before the procedures for settling outstanding issues on the rosters by negotiation had been exhausted.

I hope that you will join LUL in discussing the remaining few areas where rosters still need to be agreed [and] call off a strike which is not in the interests of your members or of Londoners

And after all even if the unions are on board with Corbyn and Labour, it doesn't mean the working class is. You can tell already the way Corbyn talks as if we've all got shared interests as 'the people' or whatever. If he ever gets the chance and if he really believes it he'll soon find out that we don't.

 

[Dogsauce]

Don't do nothing ever because of everything ever.

Harsh. Some of these people sign absolutely LOADS of Internet petitions.

 

[Rob Ray]

What like Militant Labour in Liverpool in the 80s? (Not that i support them)

I'm not nearly well-read enough about that period to do an in-depth argument about it tbh, but it'd seem optimistic on the face of it to say that went well, did the councillors' activities catalyse much other mass action? Beyond getting people into voting booths I mean. Genuine question.

 

[two sheds]

Not by saying to councilors go ahead and impose cuts, we understand. By telling them the opposite, By actually resisting. By not putting councilors legitimacy as your first concern. By surrounding them - not supporting them. If people don't do this then what is the point?

Why are you ignoring the possibilities for increasing income that I suggested? Are you not bothered that this could be a major way of avoiding the cuts? Why don't you want to respond to dwindling incomes for councils? If people don't do this then what is the point?

 

[butchersapron]

Why are you ignoring the possibilities for increasing income that I suggested? Are you not bothered that this could be a major way of avoiding the cuts? Why don't you want to respond to dwindling incomes for councils? If people don't do this then what is the point?

Why am i ignoring the possibility of corybn being elected in 2020 and then changing the entire structure of council funding? I'm not. I said that this isn't fighting, this isn't resistance. Which is what's needed now, today, this afternoon. And that saying councilors are legally tied to doing things so just wait until this possibility (which i don't think will happen anyway) is exactly not fighting. Whilst imposing pressure on councilors - or removing them - to not vote for cuts no matter what, building a wider coalition in the process is the wider corbyn plan - he's quite explicit about this and his branch of the labour left have been since 1979 and beyond the fragments. They really don't mean wait until corbyn is elected and respect the labour parties leadership - why would you?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Surcharging was done away with fifteen years ago. Now they're just disbarred and any unbalanced budget is simply thrown out by officials and a government appointed team comes in instead.

And shows itself up big time by enacting the cuts that the council refused to, transferring the blame back where it belongs.

Local democracy, making North Korea look tempting since 1996

Sadly, way too accurate.

 

[ViolentPanda]

They can't fight cuts though, not while retaining control. All they can do is set an "unbalanced" budget which then gets shredded and redone by a Westminster wonk. At best, it's a political statement involving abdicating responsibility for the very role you campaigned to be in. Yes you can possibly do that as part of a mass campaign of disruption, but if that mass movement exists anyway it's mostly just a minor symbolic addition to the real threat, hardly worth the enormous resources required to win the seat in the first place. And tbh, it completely misreads the mindset of the vast majority of the people who sign up to be council members - they believe in setting responsible budgets, that's why they're there.

I don't agree about abdication of responsibility. You're effectively saying that elected members should take responsibility for administering central government cuts, when those members have not been elected on a platform of doing so. I don't recall any of the ward councillors in Lambeth campaigning on a "I'll carry out government cuts" ticket.
Officers may - in fact do - have an obligation to take forward central government policy, but a councillor's primary duty should be representation of the local populace, not acting as a rubber-stamp for the dismantling of the local authority and the various social, educational and health issues it supports.

 

[RedSkin]

Quelle suprise @ Invas link 2 discussions between Livingstone & Bob Crow.
If i was a member of the British Ruling Class I'd be much more shitting myself that women had been trained in the manufature of munitions than a some blokes knew how to use rifles
'The Sylvia Pankhurst Women's Artillery Brigade'!

 

[Pickman's model]

Quelle suprise @ Invas link 2 discussions between Livingstone & Bob Crow.
If i was a member of the British Ruling Class I'd be much more shitting myself that womem had been trained in the manufature of munitions than a some blokes knew how to use rifled
'The Sylvia Pankhurst Women's Artillery Brigade'!

yes. you do know that being trained to make munitions does not make one proficient in their use, nor does it suggest an ability to use a howitzer etc.

 

[DotCommunist]

That's not going to happen though because Corbyn's never going to be PM so the Momentumite hoardes would be more fruitfully employed if harnessed in direct action this weekend.

hordes

 

[RedSkin]

yes. you do know that being trained to make munitions does not make one proficient in their use, nor does it suggest an ability to use a howitzer etc.

Sure all you'd have to find is a handful of previously trained sympathetic people.

 

[Pickman's model]

Sure all you'd have to find is a handful of previously trained sympathetic people.

yeh cos howitzers and field guns are left lying everywhere these days

 

[Rob Ray]

You're effectively saying that elected members should take responsibility for administering central government cuts, when those members have not been elected on a platform of doing so.

I'm not saying they should or shouldn't do anything, I'm just pointing out that the setup in councils essentially cuts off any avenue for legal rebellion, suggesting that councillors don't generally come into office with a view to illegal rebellion and saying I've not got much faith that such a rebellion, if it did happen, would catalyse the sort of mass movement required to actually overcome the state hurdles required to win. It's possible I'm unduly downbeat on that score, but I've not seen a contemporary example happen since the regulator threat came in so evidence is light either way.

I don't recall any of the ward councillors in Lambeth campaigning on a "I'll carry out government cuts" ticket.

No Daily Mail journalist walks up to an interview subject saying "I've got a right-wing angle" either.

a councillor's primary duty should be representation of the local populace

There's a million and one ways to interpret that duty, and "responsible budgeting which doesn't bring the regulator's bastard hand down on our remaining services" is a very plausible one for councillors who don't have significant pressure from below pushing them to be a bit braver.

Edit: Ah fuck it I'm being a right little ray of sunshine here, probably the cumulative from recent insomnia - I'll leave off further comment I think.

 

[RedSkin]

yeh cos howitzers and field guns are left lying everywhere these days

I was refering to the direct aftermath of the 2nd world war. Perhaps you think women would be better suited to cooking in the naffe or tending to the wounded than trying the complicated task of operating heavy artillery?

 

[Pickman's model]

I was refering to the direct aftermath of the 2nd world war. Perhaps you think women would be better suited to cooking in the naffe or tending to the wounded than trying the complicated task of operating heavy artillery?

i don't see how your "clarification" improves what you said

 

[RedSkin]

I would have thought learning how to create munitions would have been far more complex than learningto fire them in the right direction

 

[mauvais]

I would have thought learning how to create munitions would have been far more complex than learningto fire them in the right direction

And yet John Major continues to walk the earth.

 

[two sheds]

Why am i ignoring the possibility of corybn being elected in 2020 and then changing the entire structure of council funding? I'm not. I said that this isn't fighting, this isn't resistance. Which is what's needed now, today, this afternoon. And that saying councilors are legally tied to doing things so just wait until this possibility (which i don't think will happen anyway) is exactly not fighting. Whilst imposing pressure on councilors - or removing them - to not vote for cuts no matter what, building a wider coalition in the process is the wider corbyn plan - he's quite explicit about this and his branch of the labour left have been since 1979 and beyond the fragments. They really don't mean wait until corbyn is elected and respect the labour parties leadership - why would you?

Ta for the reference, will check it.

But some of the measures for increased funding could be brought in now, surely, not having to wait for a corbyn government. St Ives has won a referendum deciding that new build properties be reserved for local people for example. They don't have to wait to alter the whole structure of funding - you're just dismissing them out of hand.

 

[butchersapron]

Ta for the reference, will check it.

But some of the measures for increased funding could be brought in now, surely, not having to wait for a corbyn government. St Ives has won a referendum deciding that new build properties be reserved for local people for example. They don't have to wait to alter the whole structure of funding - you're just dismissing them out of hand.

I seem to be dismissing a lot of people today.

I'm certainly going to dismiss this post.

 

[two sheds]

Yeh great just criticize people and ignore the response why don't you.

 

[Pickman's model]

I would have thought learning how to create munitions would have been far more complex than learningto fire them in the right direction

i don't suppose they did learn how to create munitions, simply being given x, y, and z and being shown how to combine them and make shells. and they certainly weren't shown how to load and aim artillery pieces.

sad to say i think you'll not be seeing in the new year with us. you'll either have buggered off or been banned by then.