Why Labour are Scum

[Awesome Wells]

Do you want Labour to put the brakes on very, very lightly for a bit?

If nothing else, then yes.

And in the meantime we campaign and work toward a better system; that, as i've always contested, is the long term goal.

For now, next year, if the only outcome is Labour put the brakes on lightly then that is still infinitely more preferrable than 5 more years of IDS, Gove, Hunt, etc.

Or, as was asked, give me an alternative.

 

[Favelado]

If nothing else, then yes.

And in the meantime we campaign and work toward a better system; that, as i've always contested, is the long term goal.

For now, next year, if the only outcome is Labour put the brakes on lightly then that is still infinitely more preferrable than 5 more years of IDS, Gove, Hunt, etc.

Or, as was asked, give me an alternative.

It's not working your way. It's been explained a dozen different ways. People spent more than a decade making the case you were making when Labour were in power. It's not "infinitely preferable", it's the same result ultimately. Labour just kicked Skinner off the NEC. You think they're in the mood for listening to left-wingers? You've got shadow cabinet members perfectly happy to talk down the welfare state in public, there's no indication at all from the leadershop or PLP that there's going to be a leftward shift of any kind, and as had been pointed out to you, the mechanisms to change Labour from within are gone. Haven't you paid attention in the past 20 years? You can't just ignore all the evidence.

The alternative is a party that has a manifesto I like. I'll vote for one when I see one. Otherwise, let the Tories get in. I can't be expected to vote for policies I hate from Labour for the rest of my life. Why should I continually validate an organisation that has spent my entire adult lifetime seeing how far it can push me?

 

[Awesome Wells]

It's not working your way. It's been explained a dozen different ways. People spent more than a decade making the case you were making when Labour were in power. It's not "infinitely preferable", it's the same result ultimately. Labour just kicked Skinner off the NEC. You think they're in the mood for listening to left-wingers? You've got shadow cabinet members perfectly happy to talk down the welfare state in public, there's no indication at all from the leadershop or PLP that there's going to be a leftward shift of any kind, and as had been pointed out to you, the mechanisms to change Labour from within are gone. Haven't you paid attention in the past 20 years? You can't just ignore all the evidence.

The alternative is a party that has a manifesto I like. I'll vote for one when I see one. Otherwise, let the Tories get in. I can't be expected to vote for policies I hate from Labour for the rest of my life. Why should I continually validate an organisation that has spent my entire adult lifetime seeing how far it can push me?

I've no idea what Labour are in the mood for. All i'm concerned with is that, right now, people are able to get some respite. If there was an alternative that offered a better solution I'd take it. There isn't; that's the problem. I don't really care about the past 20 years and I don't really care about Tony Blair or how aggrieved people are on this thread. I care that we make the best choice we can, as a nation, next year, and, in lieu of an alternative that noone has provided still, i see that as Labour. It's far from idea, granted. But it is still, IMO, better than the Tories. The only people who say otherwise are speculating.

 

[Favelado]

I've no idea what Labour are in the mood for. All i'm concerned with is that, right now, people are able to get some respite. If there was an alternative that offered a better solution I'd take it. There isn't; that's the problem. I don't really care about the past 20 years and I don't really care about Tony Blair or how aggrieved people are on this thread. I care that we make the best choice we can, as a nation, next year, and, in lieu of an alternative that noone has provided still, i see that as Labour. It's far from idea, granted. But it is still, IMO, better than the Tories. The only people who say otherwise are speculating.

Labour won't offer respite.
They aren't a solution and they won't even ameliorate the problems we have.
If you don't care about the past twenty years you're not the person to best judge the next five.
If you don't care about the legacy of Tony Blair then you don't care about politics in The UK at all.
If you don't care about how aggrieved people on this thread are, you have dedicated an awful lot of time engaging with them about why they should be less aggrieved.
If you care about making the best choice you can, don't validate Labour's manifesto. Not voting or voting for another party would be a better choice.
You are speculating, everyone else is just looking at the evidence.

 

[starfish2000]

Ive no idea who to vote for. Iraq aside, the liberalisation of Gambling made my blood boil & Labour have sold out the working person. Meanwhile the Tories are carrying out the largest systematic criminal asset stripping of ordinary people since the Nazi's.

Im actually thinking of leaving the UK

 

[Awesome Wells]

Labour won't offer respite.

is speculation.

what is your alternative that doesn't return the Tories?

 

[Awesome Wells]

Ive no idea who to vote for. Iraq aside, the liberalisation of Gambling made my blood boil & Labour have sold out the working person. Meanwhile the Tories are carrying out the largest systematic criminal asset stripping of ordinary people since the Nazi's.

Im actually thinking of leaving the UK

If the tories are returned i'll leave the UK by taking a running jump off the cliffs of Dover.

 

[Favelado]

is speculation.

what is your alternative that doesn't return the Tories?

Let them in if that's what it takes to build a better country in the long-term. You want them in all the time, just with a different colour tie.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Let them in if that's what it takes to build a better country in the long-term. You want them in all the time, just with a different colour tie.

I don't think you're in any position to tell me what i want after a statement as nonsensical as that.

 

[Lo Siento.]

And the part you might want to try grasping is that I am not saying there is much difference at all.

I was not imagining that you had and my response was not based on that premise.

 

[J Ed]

Let them in if that's what it takes to build a better country in the long-term. You want them in all the time, just with a different colour tie.

Indeed, and what does it say of socialism and socialists if the best they can propose to people is that they try and the same bunch of criminals in just with different ties? Is that going to win people over to socialist ideas as an alternative to what we have now or are they going to correctly note that these socialists are shilling for the people who are fucking them over and go and vote for UKIP?

 

[Pickman's model]

If the tories are returned i'll leave the UK by taking a running jump off the cliffs of Dover.

i wasn't going to vote but now it looks as if i'll have to.

 

[Pickman's model]

I've no idea what Labour are in the mood for. All i'm concerned with is that, right now, people are able to get some respite. If there was an alternative that offered a better solution I'd take it. There isn't; that's the problem. I don't really care about the past 20 years and I don't really care about Tony Blair or how aggrieved people are on this thread. I care that we make the best choice we can, as a nation, next year, and, in lieu of an alternative that noone has provided still, i see that as Labour. It's far from idea, granted. But it is still, IMO, better than the Tories. The only people who say otherwise are speculating.

you fucking muppet. so you don't care about iraq, afghanistan, the crumbling of civil liberties etc etc etc ad nauseam.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Indeed, and what does it say of socialism and socialists if the best they can propose to people is that they try and the same bunch of criminals in just with different ties? Is that going to win people over to socialist ideas as an alternative to what we have now or are they going to correctly note that these socialists are shilling for the people who are fucking them over and go and vote for UKIP?

So provide an alternative?

 

[Lo Siento.]

I don't think you're in any position to tell me what i want after a statement as nonsensical as that.

"They" means both parties. The ones who've ruled for 300 years.

 

[Pickman's model]

If nothing else, then yes.

And in the meantime we campaign and work toward a better system; that, as i've always contested, is the long term goal.

For now, next year, if the only outcome is Labour put the brakes on lightly then that is still infinitely more preferrable than 5 more years of IDS, Gove, Hunt, etc.

Or, as was asked, give me an alternative.

if you say to people 'vote labour' you can't then say 'and work for a better alternative' as no one will believe you: you've said to them you're offering bullshit. fine, work for a better society. but if you say 'vote labour' no one will believe you're after a better society, just different cunts in charge.

 

[Favelado]

So provide an alternative?

Labour are shit. Not providing an alternative isn't worse than voting for something shit. Doing nothing is better than doing something shit.

 

[Awesome Wells]

"They" means both parties. The ones who've ruled for 300 years.

Whatever.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Labour are shit. Not providing an alternative isn't worse than voting for something shit. Doing nothing is better than doing something shit.

Doing nothing = voting Tory.

 

[J Ed]

Doing nothing = voting Tory.

You can fuck off with that

 

[Lo Siento.]

Whatever.

We have one ruling class, they divide in 2 and wear different colour ties. People like you scare everyone by saying the blue ties will cause the end of the world. Other people tell everyone the opposite. The same people stay in charge forever.

 

[Pickman's model]

Labour are shit. Not providing an alternative isn't worse than voting for something shit. Doing nothing is better than doing something shit.

 

[Lo Siento.]

Doing nothing = voting Tory.

Oh no!! Are you too young to remember Blair or something?

 

[Hocus Eye.]

Doing nothing = voting Tory.

Voting Labour = Voting Tory.

 

[DotCommunist]

unless you can show me exactly where the labour party differs radically on policy- where it hasn't 'me-tood' a recent anti w/c tory initiative or election pledge than I rather think it is you who are voting tory.

 

[Pickman's model]

Voting Labour = Voting Tory.

yeh but if you vote tory you get rid of 'beau' wells.

 

[Pickman's model]

Oh no!! Are you too young to remember Blair or something?

he's the memory of a goldfish

 

[Awesome Wells]

You can fuck off with that

You think that by not voting you aren't helping them get back in? How naive are you?

The only people that woudl consider not voting are those that don't like the current system and don't like the tories. Their supporters won't be not voting so all you do is reduce the pool of votes against them, Labour or otherwise. That means the tories return, with your help.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Oh no!! Are you too young to remember Blair or something?

Irrelevant.

 

[Awesome Wells]

We have one ruling class, they divide in 2 and wear different colour ties. People like you scare everyone by saying the blue ties will cause the end of the world. Other people tell everyone the opposite. The same people stay in charge forever.

ANd your alternative?