Why Labour are Scum

[redsquirrel]

Labour is the only game in town. The only realistic way working class people will gain social and economic emancipation in Britain is by reclaiming labour and reshaping it as a socialist party.

Working class people should be re-joining labour and taking their party back, its the only realistic option, talk of tiny socialist parties, anarchism etc...all pie in the sky.

To answer your question, there is no alternative.

Good to know that those million people out striking today should all just give up and vote for a party which won't support them.

You fucking shill.

 

[Nylock]

Labour is the only game in town. The only realistic way working class people will gain social and economic emancipation in Britain is by reclaiming labour and reshaping it as a socialist party.

Working class people should be re-joining labour and taking their party back, its the only realistic option, talk of tiny socialist parties, anarchism etc...all pie in the sky.

To answer your question, there is no alternative.

You're having a fucking laugh. Just how do you propose that the working class take the party back? Go on, I'm all ears...

 

[DairyQueen]

Labour is the only game in town. The only realistic way working class people will gain social and economic emancipation in Britain is by reclaiming labour and reshaping it as a socialist party.

Working class people should be re-joining labour and taking their party back, its the only realistic option, talk of tiny socialist parties, anarchism etc...all pie in the sky.

To answer your question, there is no alternative.

We have to face the facts, Militant Tendency tried and failed. A strong socialist, or left-wing, faction would be expelled well before they got an MP. In the meantime, they would be supporting a right-wing party.

If you're a socialist, bear in mind I do want to see a strong left-wing voice, or even some plurality. I can't see either happening in Westminster.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Labour is the only game in town. The only realistic way working class people will gain social and economic emancipation in Britain is by reclaiming labour and reshaping it as a socialist party.

Sorry, but that's bullshit. The last time the working class tried entryism as a means of "reclaiming Labour", they were witch-hunted out of the party by Kinnock and his neoliberalism-lite centrists.

Working class people should be re-joining labour and taking their party back, its the only realistic option, talk of tiny socialist parties, anarchism etc...all pie in the sky.

To answer your question, there is no alternative.

And just how do the working class win back a party that's changed all the mechanisms by which constituency parties could actually change party policy?
Back when I was first a Labour Party member, I could raise any concern or issue at a party meeting, get it debated, and if the constituency picked it up, get it heard nationally, at conference, and voted on, whether that was legislative or to do with internal rules.
By the time I left Labour, they'd already started to curtail the freedom of local activists, and by 2001 they'd removed the power of constituency representatives to take matters to conference.
You're living in a dreamworld if you think Labour can be "changed from the inside". The rules and procedures have been changed to specifically prevent that from happening, and the other two mainstream parties were so impressed at what Labour did, that they changed their own constitutions likewise.

Just to repeat: There's no mechanism by which activists can reclaim the party. All the mechanisms that allowed "people power" or "member power" have been removed.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Good to know that those million people out striking today should all just give up and vote for a party which won't support them.

You fucking shill.

TBF to the poster, many people who propose this route have little comprehension of just how thoroughly Labour altered the constitution and the membership rules post-'94 in order to alienate activist power within the party. They have little comprehension that any sort of entryism is now impossible because of the cut-outs to achieving any "power" or influence within constituency parties. That's why Labour is happy to have so many wanna-be political careerists as councillors nowadays, rather than local activists.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You're having a fucking laugh. Just how do you propose that the working class take the party back? Go on, I'm all ears...

There's no way to do it, short of removing the extant Labour Party wholesale, and that's impossible. They've tainted the ideals of the party irredeemably.

 

[ViolentPanda]

We have to face the facts, Militant Tendency tried and failed. A strong socialist, or left-wing, faction would be expelled well before they got an MP. In the meantime, they would be supporting a right-wing party.

If you're a socialist, bear in mind I do want to see a strong left-wing voice, or even some plurality. I can't see either happening in Westminster.

Given the arbitrary power that Central Office holds, left-wing voices don't get into positions of influence. They're actively-resisted.

 

[Sprocket.]

Given the arbitrary power that Central Office holds, left-wing voices don't get into positions of influence. They're actively-resisted.

True, resisted, ignored and pushed out into deep water until you disappear.
Then ten years later they come door knocking asking for your support and input because they miss your passion.

 

[treelover]

John McTernan(former Blair spin doctor) in the Times has described rail privatisation as "one of the "unalloyed triumphs of Major's Gov't" and argues Labour shouldn't attempt to renationalise them!

madness...

 

[Favelado]

John McTernan(former Blair spin doctor) in the Times has described rail privatisation has been one of the "unalloyed triumphs" of Major's time in office and argues labour shouldn't attempt to renationalise them!

The weather must be lovely up there.

 

[agricola]

John McTernan(former Blair spin doctor) in the Times has described rail privatisation as "one of the "unalloyed triumphs of Major's Gov't" and argues Labour shouldn't attempt to renationalise them!

madness...

I can see why a Blairite spin doctor would say that - after all, rail privatization killed a lot of people and cost the country billions of pounds, which makes it the same kind of triumph as Iraq was.

 

[Pickman's model]

Labour is the only game in town. The only realistic way working class people will gain social and economic emancipation in Britain is by reclaiming labour and reshaping it as a socialist party.

Working class people should be re-joining labour and taking their party back, its the only realistic option, talk of tiny socialist parties, anarchism etc...all pie in the sky.

To answer your question, there is no alternative.

i thought you were a sinn feiner. and as a sinn feiner i thought you'd recall

a) who sent the troops into the six counties in 1969;
b) who presided over criminalization in the 1970s;
c) who sent the sas murder squad into the six counties in 1976.

it is therefore somewhat surprising to see you advocate a vote for the party of roy mason.

 

[Nylock]

There's no way to do it, short of removing the extant Labour Party wholesale, and that's impossible. They've tainted the ideals of the party irredeemably.

Pretty much what I was thinking when I wrote my reply...

 

[Kalfindin]

i thought you were a sinn feiner. and as a sinn feiner i thought you'd recall

a) who sent the troops into the six counties in 1969;
b) who presided over criminalization in the 1970s;
c) who sent the sas murder squad into the six counties in 1976.




it is therefore somewhat surprising to see you advocate a vote for the party of roy mason.

I said the working class should take back labour and that was the most REALISTIC option. I asked posters to name another, nobody can.

Working class people rejoining labour and turning it back to its origins is the only route available.

Most Shinners would agree with me.

 

[Pickman's model]

I said the working class should take back labour and that was the most REALISTIC option. I asked posters to name another, nobody can.

Working class people rejoining labour and turning it back to its origins is the only route available.

Most Shinners would agree with me.

i can only say you know less about the history of the labour party than i thought you did.

 

[Lo Siento.]

Labour is the only game in town. The only realistic way working class people will gain social and economic emancipation in Britain is by reclaiming labour and reshaping it as a socialist party.

Working class people should be re-joining labour and taking their party back, its the only realistic option, talk of tiny socialist parties, anarchism etc...all pie in the sky.

To answer your question, there is no alternative.

Talking of "pie in the sky", what's the precedent for any labour party anywhere in the world being turned back from neo-liberalism by an influx of left-wing members?

 

[Lo Siento.]

I said the working class should take back labour and that was the most REALISTIC option. I asked posters to name another, nobody can.

If it's so realistic, I presume you can give me an example of a neo-liberal labour party being won back for working class socialism, right?

 

[Kalfindin]

If it's so realistic, I presume you can give me an example of a neo-liberal labour party being won back for working class socialism, right?

You answer me first, give me another option ?

 

[Kalfindin]

i can only say you know less about the history of the labour party than i thought you did.

Ditto, you know less about the average Shinner......Why do you think Gerry Adams was at Tony Benns funeral etc.

 

[Lo Siento.]

You answer me first, give me another option ?

I haven't pretended to have any options or answers, you're the one telling us what we've all got to do. Before I do it, can you give me a single example of it working?

 

[Kalfindin]

I haven't pretended to have any options or answers, you're the one telling us what we've all got to do. Before I do it, can you give me a single example of it working?

You are slagging of the half a loaf is better then none option, but giving no alternative.

 

[Pickman's model]

Ditto, you know less about the average Shinner......Why do you think Gerry Adams was at Tony Benns funeral etc.

but not, i note, at james callaghan's.

 

[Lo Siento.]

You are slagging of the half a loaf is better then none option, but giving no alternative.

No. What I'm saying is prior to investing my time in joining and reclaiming the Labour Party, can you give me a single example of such a strategy actually being successful in turning a neo-liberal party "back" to socialism. The alternative here is me not wasting my time.

 

[Lo Siento.]

Because there's actually quite a few examples of labour parties being (a) supplanted by new left-wing parties (in most of Latin America) (b) forced to compete by new/revamped left-wing parties (most of continental Europe) or (c) being forced to respond to mass action (err... basically all of history). I'm not arguing that any of those looks very promising in Britain right now, but there is at least precedent.

Any examples of a neo-liberal party being turned "back" to socialism yet Kalfindin ?

 

[Awesome Wells]

Good to know that those million people out striking today should all just give up and vote for a party which won't support them.

You fucking shill.

Childish

 

[Awesome Wells]

No. What I'm saying is prior to investing my time in joining and reclaiming the Labour Party, can you give me a single example of such a strategy actually being successful in turning a neo-liberal party "back" to socialism. The alternative here is me not wasting my time.

The alternative to the labour party right now is the Tory party as a majority.

 

[Favelado]

The alternative to the labour party right now is the Tory party as a majority.

What about the next 20 years instead of just the next five? Do you want Labour to put the brakes on very, very lightly for a bit? Then let the Tories get in and rip things up again? And then Labour get in....?

Fuck it, lets give the Tories the keys to the JCB now and let them get on with it. It's all taking ages and I'm getting bored. Let's see how much they can piss people off before a proper opposition turns up.

 

[DotCommunist]

Labour have spent how many a hundred or so? years now getting by on being 'not the other cunts'

milliband in near 5 years as leader of the labour party ever endorsed a strike.

 

[Lo Siento.]

The alternative to the labour party right now is the Tory party as a majority.

Firstly, I live in Hackney South & Shoreditch, so not only does it not matter if I vote, I could even go round and somehow persuade 10,000 of my neighbours to vote Tory and I'd still end up with a Labour MP (such is the wonderous democracy we live in).

Secondly, Kalfindin wasn't telling me to vote for Labour because they were the least worst of a bad bunch, he was telling me to "reclaim the Labour Party" for socialism which is considerably more time consuming (and has what I estimate to be zero chance of success).

Finally, and this is the bit you might want to try grasping once and for all, the politics of the government of the day is not significantly determined by which of the two parties of government (293 years in power and counting) happens to win any given election but by the consensus that is shared between them. Thus Balfour was a free-trader despite being a Tory, MacDonald and Baldwin both believed in the Gold Standard, Attlee and Churchill were both advocates of the welfare state, Callaghan and Thatcher were both monetarists and Thatcher and Blair were both neo-liberals. There is sod all point in changing the government without changing the consensus, and if you want to change that the absolute last bloody thing you would want to do would be to sign a blank cheque to the Labour Party announcing that you'll support them forevermore no matter how noxious their policies, simply because they aren't the Tories.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Finally, and this is the bit you might want to try grasping once and for all, the politics of the government of the day is not significantly determined by which of the two parties of government (293 years in power and counting) happens to win any given election but by the consensus that is shared between them.

And the part you might want to try grasping is that I am not saying there is much difference at all.