Why is socialism such a dirty word in the US?

[Orang Utan]

??

 

[danny la rouge]

McCarthy.

 

[editor]

I loved the way McCain banged on about Obama wanting to "share the wealth" like it was the worst thing that could ever happen to humanity.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This is the country where people ask 'why should I have to pay if my neighbour gets sick' as a reason not to have universal health care.

 

[ivebeenhigh]

isn't it contrary to the whole idea of individual achievement that the US seems so fond of?

 

[Treacle Toes]

??

Capitialism is selfish.

 

[andy2002]

??

I suspect many Americans conflate socialism with Soviet-era "communism".

 

[pigtails]

They are all about the individual innit, everyone for themselves. but i do find it odd that calling someone a socialist could be an insult.



e2a- but then i guess i'd find it an insult if someone was to call me a tory!

 

[adc069975]

They've succeeded in convincing much of the w/c that re-distributive policies and better public services don't benefit them, to which there's a racial element.

 

[Orang Utan]

Capitialism is selfish.

But nearly the whole world is capitalist, yet there are sizeable socialist* parties in most countries.


*or at least those that call themselves socialists

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But nearly the whole world is capitalist, yet there are sizeable socialist parties in most countries.

you've had your answer - McCarthy. There was a sizeable socialist movement in the US up to the 1930s. In the 50s and 60s, anti-red hysteria led to the thoroughly antidemocratic persecution of the left.

The UK no longer has a sizeable socialist party, btw.

 

[Orang Utan]

you've had your answer - McCarthy. There was a sizeable socialist movement in the US up to the 1930s. In the 50s and 60s, anti-red hysteria led to the thoroughly antidemocratic persecution of the left.

The UK no longer has a sizeable socialist party, btw.

See my edit

 

[Treacle Toes]

But nearly the whole world is capitalist, yet there are sizeable socialist* parties in most countries.


*or at least those that call themselves socialists

SELFish= the capitalism of the individual above all else. I know it goes on all over but during that campaign the extent of it in the US I found astounding.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The idea of unamerican activity was a hugely successful piece of propaganda. It still resonates today.

 

[Treacle Toes]

The idea of unamerican activity was a hugely successful piece of propaganda. It still resonates today.

I personally found it the scariest example of double speak ever.... The real America...Real Americans blah blah blah...

 

[butchersapron]

There's a long tradition of real socialism in the US (from violent revolutionary to social democratic). The story of how these were largely destroyed by a combination of full frontal aattack and covert acitons (both unconstituionally) is one of the great forgotten strories of US history - hidden on pupose of course.

I've got no time tonight, but this is a really interesting area. The split between the utterly militant unions fighting on an economic basis and political parties fighting politically is very important. Other thing that have been suggested (most famously in the sombart thesis) is the influence of religion, land in the west for people to move into, the lack of a trad aristocracy for a rising bourgeois to fight against with the w/c etc

Hope this thread is still alive tommorow.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Politicians try it here. Remember 'the British dream'? It doesn't work.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I remember the first chapter of "One Market Under God" being interesting on the subject of the rewriting of US history to make it look like it had always been a Reagan-capitalist country.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

the lack of a trad aristocracy for a rising bourgeois to fight against with the w/c etc

That's interesting. Hence an alliance such as that at the beginning of the Mexican Revolution was impossible.

 

[elbows]

The effective anti-socialism propaganda in the USA probably predates the cold war, the corporate fightback against the New Deal back in the 30's, the birth of 'public relations' played their part. I dont think the sheer scale of the USA helps either, the anti-fed stuff that we only get a mild sense of with our anti-EU equivalent.

 

[William of Walworth]

I suspect many Americans conflate socialism with Soviet-era "communism".

Same, or similar, Americans think the same thing of 'liberalism' ...

 

[MightyAphrodite]

I loved the way McCain banged on about Obama wanting to "share the wealth" like it was the worst thing that could ever happen to humanity.

i loved it when Obama said "I shared my peanut butter and jelly sandwich in kindergarten, McCain will be calling me a communist for that next."

 

[elbows]

Yes thats the only thing Ive heard him say so far that made me laugh out loud.

The TV media had quite a part to play in the US's distrust of all things socialist, maybe they can help restore a little balance now, or maybe they will foam at the mouth at the things he might do.

 

[laptop]

I do hope butchers comes back with a more comprehensive account than I have the energy to post.

But one short version is this:

Around the turn of the last century, the capitalist class in the US looked at the rise of trade unionism (largely anarchist rather than socialist in the post-1917 sense) and thought "oh fuck".

So it attacked on all fronts.

It hired gunmen to kill trade union organisers.

More significantly to our current situation, it hired what would now be called "spin doctors" to lie and deceive.

They pretty much created the myth of US "rugged individualism" as an appealing alternative to, er, acting together to improve our lot and reduce their share of the pie. Because that would be "socialism". See how the circular logic is created?

I heartily recommend David Miller's and William Dinan's A Century of Spin on this aspect.

 

[Azrael]

They pretty much created the myth of US "rugged individualism" as an appealing alternative to, er, acting together to improve our lot and reduce their share of the pie.

Or alternatively, granting the state the vast powers necessary to sieze property on "our behalf", thereby saying that private property ultimately belongs to the state. Serfdom doesn't fit the USA's tradition of negative liberty too well.

While "rugged individualism" (if ever a phrase were ripe for homoerotic subversion ...) might have been exaggerated, amongst the legacies left by the "city on a hill" puritains who founded Massachusetts is a strong ethic of self-reliance. That combined with a fear of government (good old William Pitt!) and a half-century leading the fight against Soviet tyranny isn't conducive to socialism.

As self-confessed redistributionist President-elect Obama will doubtless discover.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Serfdom?

Please.

 

[lobster]

I suspect many Americans conflate socialism with Soviet-era "communism".

I have read on a few forums that they don't want to turn into Sweden.
I find it very amusing when I read that.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I suspect many Americans conflate socialism with Soviet-era "communism".

Bingo.

 

[quimcunx]

I have read on a few forums that they don't want to turn into Sweden.
I find it very amusing when I read that.

Vodka is unpatriotic.

 

[Azrael]

Serfdom?

Please.

Collective ownership of the means of production presupposes that property ownership isn't a right, and since most models of socialism delegate ownership to the state, feudalism is a fair description.

We'll disagree, of course. I'm simply offering a fear of over-mighty government as an alternative to selfishness or corporate indoctrination.