Why does society not trust women?

[Cloo]

Y'know, the way it often takes a man's testimony for a woman to be believed, for example (as referred to here )?

Obviously, there's patriarchy and all and men siding with one another. But I also think our society carries this idea that women are less honest and 'honourable' than men. Perhaps constructed because women are generally less physically strong than men and over time the idea has formed is that therefore a woman's 'weapon' is lies and manipulation. Like, a man can in theory get up and have a fight with another guy to sort out who's in the right, but a woman 'can't' do that so she has to lie about her enemies and mess with their heads instead.

If a woman raises something, eyebrows are often raised about 'who she has a problem with' and 'what she might be getting back at someone about' before it's considered she might have a genuine grievance. Any thoughts about my late night rambling concepts here?

 

[nyxx]

You don’t have to go that far back to find women being deemed to be completely controlled by their wombs and incapable of rational thinking (etymology of “hysteria”).
Socialisation from school onwards tends to privilege male voices over female. I think if you asked the kind of openly misogynistic old git who will admit to doing it, they’d all have different “reasons” for it.

 

[Celyn]

... Obviously, there's patriarchy and all and men siding with one another. But I also think our society carries this idea that women are less honest and 'honourable' than men....

We have got rather a lot of religions that have a history of women being definitely inferior. I won't pretend right now in late night ramblings to look at all religions in the world or even in Britain, but major ones like Christianity, Judaism, and Islam do have that whole "women are lesser" thing. Well obviously, I suppose, as they're from the same root. I think the reason I put them in that order is because of relative "size" in Britain, obviously not in order of history.

If we're allowed to do simple pondering-out-loud ramblings here rather than frightfully well-researched academic theses, there is certainly a problem with the religion sort of thing, in that we can have a society in which certain rights are accorded to women but in which some women, regardless of what the laws say, grow up being told they are not equal, and that sort of thing will take bloody ages to break down.

Perhaps constructed because women are generally less physically strong than men and over time the idea has formed is that therefore a woman's 'weapon' is lies and manipulation. Like, a man can in theory get up and have a fight with another guy to sort out who's in the right, but a woman 'can't' do that so she has to lie about her enemies and mess with their heads instead.

An interesting point, and also interesting that you put it that way. I see what you mean, that if one will not win by physical strength, one uses what strengths are available, which men do also, of course. But it's interesting that what might be praised as being the use of intelligence and thought can be derided as women using "lies and manipulation". We know damn well that men do a whole lot of lies and manipulation, but you are pointing out that this is sometimes seen as a thing that is only done by women.

Or, in fact, you are pointing out that women are far too often accused of using lies and manipulation, this being a way of denying any validity to whatever arguments women make.

Perhaps constructed because women are generally less physically strong than men and over time the idea has formed is that therefore a woman's 'weapon' is lies and manipulation.

Yes, I know I quoted that before. But there is no reason at all why a lack of physical strength must result in "lies" etc. There's every reason why a lack of physical strength might result in some clever thinking as opposed to brute force, but this or that mediæval king might be praised for wise and crafty thinking and plotting, so why should the same thing, if done by women, be denigrated as "lies and manipulation"?

I'm not sure, really, that it is currently thought that women are automatically less honest and honourable than men. But little notices appear saying more posts have been posted, so I will hit "send" on this, and hope to return to it again with more thought.

 

[cheesethief]

Y'know, the way it often takes a man's testimony for a woman to be believed, for example (as referred to here )?

Obviously, there's patriarchy and all and men siding with one another. But I also think our society carries this idea that women are less honest and 'honourable' than men. Perhaps constructed because women are generally less physically strong than men and over time the idea has formed is that therefore a woman's 'weapon' is lies and manipulation. Like, a man can in theory get up and have a fight with another guy to sort out who's in the right, but a woman 'can't' do that so she has to lie about her enemies and mess with their heads instead.

If a woman raises something, eyebrows are often raised about 'who she has a problem with' and 'what she might be getting back at someone about' before it's considered she might have a genuine grievance. Any thoughts about my late night rambling concepts here?

I'm not so sure it's about women being perceived as less honest or honourable than men. Personally, as a bloke, I tend to think of women as generally being more honest & honourable. I think it may be more to do with a dismissive sentiment often expressed towards women. A case of less weight attributed to them compared to men saying the same things. It's as if there's a pecking order when listening to peoples' grievances - children at the bottom, then women, then men - who are taken more seriously than other groups (especially middle-class white men).

 

[Gromit]

Yeah yeah blame men. The truth is that it's women who don't trust other women to be honest not us simple men folk.

Man says "I want cheese"
Woman 1 interprets that as "He wants cheese"

Woman 2 says "I want cheese"
Woman 1 asks herself "what did she mean by that? is inferring that I my offering wasn't good enough, is that a reference to my outfit? Is she saying it's cheesy? etc etc etc"

This is part of the problem. The over developed communication centers of women's brains that add unnecessary extra layers to coms.

 

[DotCommunist]

one day he'll kill you know

 

[Pickman's model]

Yeah yeah blame men. The truth is that it's women who don't trust other women to be honest not us simple men folk.

Man says "I want cheese"
Woman 1 interprets that as "He wants cheese"

Woman 2 says "I want cheese"
Woman 1 asks herself "what did she mean by that? is inferring that I my offering wasn't good enough, is that a reference to my outfit? Is she saying it's cheesy? etc etc etc"

This is part of the problem. The over developed communication centers of women's brains that add unnecessary extra layers to coms.

the underdeveloped communication centres of your brain render your posts superfluous to this or any discussion.

 

[krtek a houby]

Yeah yeah blame men. The truth is that it's women who don't trust other women to be honest not us simple men folk.

Man says "I want cheese"
Woman 1 interprets that as "He wants cheese"

Woman 2 says "I want cheese"
Woman 1 asks herself "what did she mean by that? is inferring that I my offering wasn't good enough, is that a reference to my outfit? Is she saying it's cheesy? etc etc etc"

This is part of the problem. The over developed communication centers of women's brains that add unnecessary extra layers to coms.

Cheese, Gromit? Are you taking your moniker a bit too literally?

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Yeah yeah blame men. The truth is that it's women who don't trust other women to be honest not us simple men folk.

Man says "I want cheese"
Woman 1 interprets that as "He wants cheese"

Woman 2 says "I want cheese"
Woman 1 asks herself "what did she mean by that? is inferring that I my offering wasn't good enough, is that a reference to my outfit? Is she saying it's cheesy? etc etc etc"

This is part of the problem. The over developed communication centers of women's brains that add unnecessary extra layers to coms.

You fucking idiot.

 

[Gromit]

Cheese, Gromit? Are you taking your moniker a bit too literally?

You'd feta believe it.

 

[krtek a houby]

I think that men, or rather some men, are inherently scared of women. Or see women as less than equal, to be sneered at, objectified or dismissed.
I was very lucky to have strong women in my life, so I never really got the whole cries of "feminazis" and all that tosh.

At the end of the day, I believe we are all equal (or need to be) but some just won't allow it. If that makes any sense at all.

 

[kabbes]

Fuck off, Gromit.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

I think that men, or rather some men, are inherently scared of women. Or see women as less than equal, to be sneered at, objectified or dismissed.

I find it tends to be the sort of men that are scared of women who try to make themselves feel better by sneering at, objectifying and attempting to dismiss them.

 

[tim]

Yeah yeah blame men. The truth is that it's women who don't trust other women to be honest not us simple men folk.

Man says "I want cheese"
Woman 1 interprets that as "He wants cheese"

Woman 2 says "I want cheese"
Woman 1 asks herself "what did she mean by that? is inferring that I my offering wasn't good enough, is that a reference to my outfit? Is she saying it's cheesy? etc etc etc"

This is part of the problem. The over developed communication centers of women's brains that add unnecessary extra layers to coms.

Fuck off wanker!

 

[krtek a houby]

Potentially interesting and thought provoking thread gromited over.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Doesn't need to be over. Just ignore him.

 

[butchersapron]

I think that men, or rather some men, are inherently scared of women. Or see women as less than equal, to be sneered at, objectified or dismissed.
I was very lucky to have strong women in my life, so I never really got the whole cries of "feminazis" and all that tosh.

At the end of the day, I believe we are all equal (or need to be) but some just won't allow it. If that makes any sense at all.

Thanks for simply telling us that you're great.

What are the main theories begins the material development of historical patriarchy? How has it been effected by the rise of capitalism? How has neoliberalism changed things?

 

[bimble]

.. I also think our society carries this idea that women are less honest and 'honourable' than men. Perhaps constructed because women are generally less physically strong than men and over time the idea has formed is that therefore a woman's 'weapon' is lies and manipulation.

Yep. See for instance the wisdoms of Shopenhauer's 'Essay on Women':

"One must say that the fundamental defect of the female character is a lack of a sense of justice. This originates first and foremost in their want of rationality and capacity for reflexion but it is strengthened by the fact that, as the weaker sex, they are driven to rely not on force but on cunning: hence their instinctive subtlety and their ineradicable tendency to tell lies … Dissimulation is thus inborn in her and consequently to be found in the stupid woman almost as often as in the clever one … A completely truthful woman who does not practice dissimulation is perhaps an impossibility, which is why women see through the dissimulation of others so easily it is inadvisable to attempt it with them.'

 

[Pickman's model]

Yep. See for instance the wisdoms of Shopenhauer's 'Essay on Women':

"One must say that the fundamental defect of the female character is a lack of a sense of justice. This originates first and foremost in their want of rationality and capacity for reflexion but it is strengthened by the fact that, as the weaker sex, they are driven to rely not on force but on cunning: hence their instinctive subtlety and their ineradicable tendency to tell lies … Dissimulation is thus inborn in her and consequently to be found in the stupid woman almost as often as in the clever one … A completely truthful woman who does not practice dissimulation is perhaps an impossibility, which is why women see through the dissimulation of others so easily it is inadvisable to attempt it with them.'

so is schopenhauer representative of all philosophers on this subject - or just those from the continental tradition?

 

[8ball]

Any thoughts about my late night rambling concepts here?

It's kind of woven into the culture - several cases in the Bible, various literary characters etc. etc.

I think you've nailed the basic reason for it.

 

[dessiato]

I have a problem with the thinking that suggests women are inferior in any way. I often think this is due to having been brought up in an area where I was the only boy until I was 14. Is it really the case that a majority, even a small majority, of men don't think of women as equals?

 

[krtek a houby]

I have a problem with the thinking that suggests women are inferior in any way. I often think this is due to having been brought up in an area where I was the only boy until I was 14. Is it really the case that a majority, even a small majority, of men don't think of women as equals?

Personally, I've met too many men who've laughed at the idea that we are equal. But I don't know for sure. It sometimes feels like equality is a utopian dream.

Guess it all depends on who you talk to and your experiences.

 

[Cloo]

Guess it's been a major force for gaslighting women too, thus handy for any men wanting to dismiss a woman's concerns as just jealousy, 'irrational dislike' etc.

 

[cheesethief]

Personally, I've met too many men who've laughed at the idea that we are equal. But I don't know for sure. It sometimes feels like equality is a utopian dream.

Guess it all depends on who you talk to and your experiences.

I think it's more of a generational thing - we're still living in the tail end of an era where society regarded men & women quite differently. Such ingrained, systemic attitudes can literally take generations to fundamentally shift. But each subsequent generation grows up with a somewhat ideologically different outlook. If you look at some of the adverts from the 50's that were extremely chauvinistic, sometimes misogynistic, always patriarchal - they'd never be allowed today, and more importantly, most young men of today would probably find them shocking.

I don't think true equality is a utopian dream, but I do doubt it'll happen any time soon, there's still a long way to go.

 

[butchersapron]

Why are certain women trusted by large parts of society - the influential public parts say. Gina Miller maybe?

 

[krtek a houby]

I think it's more of a generational thing - we're still living in the tail end of an era where society regarded men & women quite differently. Such ingrained, systemic attitudes can literally take generations to fundamentally shift. But each subsequent generation grows up with a somewhat ideologically different outlook. If you look at some of the adverts from the 50's that were extremely chauvinistic, sometimes misogynistic, always patriarchal - they'd never be allowed today, and more importantly, most young men of today would probably find them shocking.

I don't think true equality is a utopian dream, but I do doubt it'll happen any time soon, there's still a long way to go.

Possibly but I think of mags like Loaded (which, yes, admittedly I bought a few issues) that was only 20 years ago. I do feel things have moved on from that. Ok, it's just a magazine but there was a whole phwooaarr culture that went along with it and now it just seems... embarrasing.

Equality is a long way off in, for example, countries that are under the thumb of religious patriarchies. I sometimes wonder if that will ever change. Perhaps not in my lifetime.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

In the great scheme of things, it's only VERY recently that women have been regarded as anything like equal. From ancient times until not so long ago, men and women had very different, and clearly defined, roles.

 

[butchersapron]

Women as homemaker and men as 'provider' is a relatively recent invention.

 

[kabbes]

I have a problem with the thinking that suggests women are inferior in any way. I often think this is due to having been brought up in an area where I was the only boy until I was 14. Is it really the case that a majority, even a small majority, of men don't think of women as equals?

Explicit attitude is only tangentially related to implicit attitude. Just because you consciously think something, doesn't mean your unconscious behaviour reflects what you consciously think. Sadly.

There's lots of research on this kind of stuff, because, well, advertising.

For example:

Physicians’ Implicit and Explicit Attitudes About Race by MD Race, Ethnicity, and Gender

When impulses take over: Moderated predictive validity of explicit and implicit attitude measures in predicting food choice and consumption behaviour

Implicit and Explicit Attitudes Toward High-Fat Foods in Obesity

 

[mojo pixy]

My experience of family court and separated parenting is of being disbelieved and distrusted by default because I'm father and not mother. This seems to be a very common experience in that context, to judge from conversations I've had on the matter with other people both men and women.