How should a just society deal with abusers?

[PTK]

I once knew an anarchist who said "free all prisoners". I said "What about the "Yorkshire Ripper?". His answer was that the Ripper should be executed. I think that that is a good example of the expression "from one extreme to the other".

 

[Pickman's model]

I once knew an anarchist who said "free all prisoners". I said "What about the "Yorkshire Ripper?". His answer was that the Ripper should be executed. I think that that is a good example of the expression "from one extreme to the other".

to be fair, peter sutcliffe is no longer in gaol

 

[PTK]

to be fair, peter sutcliffe is no longer in gaol

To be fair, he was not alive at the same time as Kropotkin.

 

[Pickman's model]

To be fair, he was not alive at the same time as Kropotkin.

i'm sure you think there's some sort of killer point, as it were, there but i'm damned if i can see it

 

[Pickman's model]

Torture chamber first, give them a taste of their own medicine.

given the number of cases in the news over the last couple of years where cops have been up in court for rape, murder, and a wide range of abusive crimes i for one would be uncomfortable with a just society training people to torture other people - there are obvious issues with such a move.

 

[PTK]

i'm sure you think there's some sort of killer point, as it were, there but i'm damned if i can see it

The point is, the conversation that I reported took place while the person mentioned was still alive, not before he was born, nor after his death.

 

[Pickman's model]

The point is, the conversation that I reported took place while the person mentioned was still alive, not before he was born, nor after his death.

two points you don't address are whether in a just society a) the prostitutes who were ps's most frequent victims would be working in that profession, and b) whether sutcliffe would have received the socialisation that he did - how much crime would a just society simply not have on the basis that fewer abusive and murderous criminals would emerge?

 

[Sasaferrato]

Showing your age.

A .38 round costs almost twice that now.

You only need .22 from 6".

 

[Sasaferrato]

given the number of cases in the news over the last couple of years where cops have been up in court for rape, murder, and a wide range of abusive crimes i for one would be uncomfortable with a just society training people to torture other people - there are obvious issues with such a move.

Rather like university degrees, the police are not what they were, or perhaps they were always thus, we just didn't hear about it.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Funnily enough, we were just discussing this last night, the conversation prompted by the news that of the prisoners released early in Scotland, in less than a month 10% of them are back inside.

Who should go to prison?

Murderers
Rapists
Child abusers
Violence against a person (Including domestic abuse, coercive control etc)
Animal killers/abusers

Who should not go to prison.

Any non violent crime.

 

[Silas Loom]

Funnily enough, we were just discussing this last night, the conversation prompted by the news that of the prisoners released early in Scotland, in less than a month 10% of them are back inside.

Who should go to prison?

Murderers
Rapists
Child abusers
Violence against a person (Including domestic abuse, coercive control etc)
Animal killers/abusers

Who should not go to prison.

Any non violent crime.

So a fraudster who has fucked over hundreds of people shouldn’t go to prison, but someone who deploys inhumane mousetraps should?

Ridiculous. This is why we have detailed sentencing guidelines rather than letting judges pick whatever punishment they fancy.

 

[Sasaferrato]

So a fraudster who has fucked over hundreds of people shouldn’t go to prison, but someone who deploys inhumane mousetraps should?

Ridiculous. This is why we have detailed sentencing guidelines rather than letting judges pick whatever punishment they fancy.

I put up our thoughts as a discussion point, so we add serious fraud to the imprisonment list.

 

[Silas Loom]

I put up our thoughts as a discussion point, so we add serious fraud to the imprisonment list.

Glad to hear it. But isn’t there something more fun to be done on your birthday than punishing imaginary wrongdoers?

 

[PTK]

two points you don't address are whether in a just society a) the prostitutes who were ps's most frequent victims would be working in that profession, and b) whether sutcliffe would have received the socialisation that he did - how much crime would a just society simply not have on the basis that fewer abusive and murderous criminals would emerge?

I do not address these points, it is true. When I hear the demand "free all prisoners", I assume that that is a demand relating to the current disposition, and certainly many anarchists I have met also make the same assumption.

 

[PTK]

Can the maximum programme be implemented immediately, or would there have to be a transition? It would take generations for certain social pathologies to disappear.

 

[Rob Ray]

Funnily enough, we were just discussing this last night, the conversation prompted by the news that of the prisoners released early in Scotland, in less than a month 10% of them are back inside.

I'm surprised it isn't higher. There's a reason prisons have the nickname "universities of crime."

 

[Pickman's model]

I do not address these points, it is true. When I hear the demand "free all prisoners", I assume that that is a demand relating to the current disposition, and certainly many anarchists I have met also make the same assumption.

the premise for this thread is that we do not live in a just society, and the question posed is what would be done with abusers etc in a just society.

 

[PTK]

the premise for this thread is that we do not live in a just society, and the question posed is what would be done with abusers etc in a just society.

You got me bang to rights.

There is a case for detaining people who could pose a danger to others, but the conditions of detention should not be harsh. Many of the abusers would have kind of psychological problem, and they should receive treatement for this.

 

[BigMoaner]

Funnily enough, we were just discussing this last night, the conversation prompted by the news that of the prisoners released early in Scotland, in less than a month 10% of them are back inside.

Who should go to prison?

Murderers
Rapists
Child abusers
Violence against a person (Including domestic abuse, coercive control etc)
Animal killers/abusers

Who should not go to prison.

Any non violent crime.

How about folk who whipe out old people’s savings with fraud?

It’s actually an interesting question you pose

 

[PTK]

How about folk who whipe out old people’s savings with fraud?

It’s actually an interesting question you pose

The answer to that may depend on how we define a just society. Some people may argue that there will not be such a thing as savings in a just society, as there will not be money.

 

[newme]

How about folk who whipe out old people’s savings with fraud?

It’s actually an interesting question you pose

What if they come from somewhere outside of this area where it is not just?

 

[8ball]

Glad to hear it. But isn’t there something more fun to be done on your birthday than punishing imaginary wrongdoers?

Unless Sass has some real wrongdoers available to punish, I’ve no idea where you’re going with this.

 

[Sasaferrato]

You got me bang to rights.

There is a case for detaining people who could pose a danger to others, but the conditions of detention should not be harsh. Many of the abusers would have kind of psychological problem, and they should receive treatement for this.

I agree. I have no problem with dealing with the most dangerous of people humanely. If someone is going to die in prison, or state hospital, they should be living in the best possible conditions. The cost of this would be more than covered by the savings generated by filling fewer cells. We are locking up too many people to no useful purpose.

 

[newme]

I agree. I have no problem with dealing with the most dangerous of people humanely. If someone is going to die in prison, or state hospital, they should be living in the best possible conditions. The cost of this would be more than covered by the savings generated by filling fewer cells. We are locking up too many people to no useful purpose.

Norway seem to have it right, as much as the US has it wrong anyway. Most of the complaints about treating prisoners like real people seem to be from those jealous they have worse conditions. Which I do get, but it isn't a competition, nor usually the same country. It's rather damning for that country to find people are jealous of someone with no personal freedom. Regardless of which one it is.